Jansen's Future in Doubt?

[Schneed10]

This move likely frees approximately $3.5 million in salary cap space for 2007. Dockery's 2007 cap number, when signed, will likely come in under $3.5 million against the cap.

It appears that the team may have been hesitant to finalize a deal with Dockery until they had an agreement with Jansen to clear cap space. Jansen was the first domino in the line, Dock should be next.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

This move likely frees approximately $3.5 million in salary cap space for 2007. Dockery's 2007 cap number, when signed, will likely come in under $3.5 million against the cap.

It appears that the team may have been hesitant to finalize a deal with Dockery until they had an agreement with Jansen to clear cap space. Jansen was the first domino in the line, Dock should be next.

That move showed commitment to the team. He basically took a paycut (of course he will get more guaranteed money but still).

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

That move showed commitment to the team. He basically took a paycut (of course he will get more guaranteed money but still).

No, definitely not a paycut. I don't know why you're saying that?

He was due just over $8 million in base salary over 2007 and 2008. I haven't seen the terms, but my guess is his signing bonus with this extension will be in that range ($8 million or so). He'll then have vet minimum salaries for the first two or three years, and then the contract will be largely backloaded.

It's probably one of those 5 year deals that are only supposed to last 3 years before they're either restructured or he's let go. But it's definitely not a paycut.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

No, definitely not a paycut. I don't know why you're saying that?

He was due just over $8 million in base salary over 2007 and 2008. I haven't seen the terms, but my guess is his signing bonus with this extension will be in that range ($8 million or so). He'll then have vet minimum salaries for the first two or three years, and then the contract will be largely backloaded.

It's probably one of those 5 year deals that are only supposed to last 3 years before they're either restructured or he's let go. But it's definitely not a paycut.

His current deal was due to pay him 4.25 and 4.75 in salary for 07 and 08. His cap number was 5.85 and 6.35 respectively. The new deal averages 4.4 and I would suspect that it is a typical large bonus/backloaded deal so he will never see the big salaries in the contract. I have no idea what the numbers are but I would expect a salary of 1 or two million for the first two years so he did take a paycut from a salary perspective.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

His current deal was due to pay him 4.25 and 4.75 in salary for 07 and 08. His cap number was 5.85 and 6.35 respectively. The new deal averages 4.4 and I would suspect that it is a typical large bonus/backloaded deal so he will never see the big salaries in the contract. I have no idea what the numbers are but I would expect a salary of 1 or two million for the first two years so he did take a paycut from a salary perspective.

That's the whole point of an extension/restructure - Lower the salary (which is the hard number directly applicable to the cap) by converting it to signing bonus. As Schneed said, he is probably getting vet minimum these first couple years. To say he is taking a "pay cut" by restructuring and refering only to the salary is akin to saying that, because the sun is out, there will be light. Or, in a more simplistic response - Duhhh!!

In fact, if this had been a straight restructure, his "salary" would have been cut by about 3 million as that would have been converted to bonus money and the bonus money then prorated over the remaining contract period. By signing the extension, however, the bonus money gets prorated over a longer period then if he done a straight restructure. Under the straight restructure, and w/out looking a the cap sheets, I expect their would not have been much cap relief.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

That's the whole point of an extension/restructure - Lower the salary (which is the hard number directly applicable to the cap) by converting it to signing bonus. As Schneed said, he is probably getting vet minimum these first couple years. To say he is taking a "pay cut" by restructuring and refering only to the salary is akin to saying that, because the sun is out, there will be light. Or, in a more simplistic response - Duhhh!!

In fact, if this had been a straight restructure, his "salary" would have been cut by about 3 million as that would have been converted to bonus money and the bonus money then prorated over the remaining contract period. By signing the extension, however, the bonus money gets prorated over a longer period then if he done a straight restructure. Under the straight restructure, and w/out looking a the cap sheets, I expect their would not have been much cap relief.

Thank you for the clarification, Joe Mendes, but I think that most of the people on the site (including me) understand why the team restructures and extends. Of course restructuring the current deal has nothing to do with this scenario and your hypothetical restructuring would be an idiotic move as it would leave the Redskins without a right tackle and with a 4.6 million dollar dead cap hit for '08. "Duhhh!!"

My original comment was that Jansen took a pay cut (meaning he took less money to help out the team). That is a fairly open ended statement so I can understand why Schneed would disagree. Here is the scenario from my perspective:

Jansen was scheduled to make $5.85 MM and $6.35 MM respectively in 2007 and 2008 (if they kept him). Obviously, the team felt that those salaries are too high.

Jansen's last deal was effectively 4 years for $15.428 or $3.86 million per year (pretty reasonable actually).

For argument's sake let's say his new contract was a straight line deal or $4.6M per year. Is that a paycut from 5.85 and 6.35, Yes. Is it a paycut from the context of his old deal, No (but it depends on your viewpoint).

The new deal pays 10 for a bonus. That is a base of 2.2 over 5 years and he gets the minimum for the first two (670M) or an average of 2.87 per year. Well, you don't have to be JoeRedskin to figure out that 2.87 is a paycut from 5.85 and 6.35. Now, the real question is what the salary amount is in years 3 -5. If they in fact pay the league minimum for 1 and 2 that leaves 10.66MM of salary to allocate over 3 years. I am guessing the salaries will be approximately 3 million in year 3, 3.66 million in year 4 and 4 million in year 5. If they keep him for 3 years the effective contract will be approximately 3 years for $ 14.34MM or 4.78 per year.

Is he getting more than he did in his old deal? Yes. Is it less than 5.85 and 6.35? Obviously. Is that a "pay cut". I would say that a difference of 2.98MM and 3.48MM respectively is but I can also see what Schneed is looking at as well. At the end of the day if he signs a deal that lets them pay him the veteran minimum in '07 and '08 that is a huge help to the team with the cap moving higher and higher over time.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

Thank you for the clarification, Joe Mendes, but I think that most of the people on the site (including me) understand why the team restructures and extends. Of course restructuring the current deal has nothing to do with this scenario and your hypothetical restructuring would be an idiotic move as it would leave the Redskins without a right tackle and with a 4.6 million dollar dead cap hit for '08. "Duhhh!!"

My original comment was that Jansen took a pay cut (meaning he took less money to help out the team). That is a fairly open ended statement so I can understand why Schneed would disagree. Here is the scenario from my perspective:

Jansen was scheduled to make $5.85 MM and $6.35 MM respectively in 2007 and 2008 (if they kept him). Obviously, the team felt that those salaries are too high.

Jansen's last deal was effectively 4 years for $15.428 or $3.86 million per year (pretty reasonable actually).

For argument's sake let's say his new contract was a straight line deal or $4.6M per year. Is that a paycut from 5.85 and 6.35, Yes. Is it a paycut from the context of his old deal, No (but it depends on your viewpoint).

The new deal pays 10 for a bonus. That is a base of 2.2 over 5 years and he gets the minimum for the first two (670M) or an average of 2.87 per year. Well, you don't have to be JoeRedskin to figure out that 2.87 is a paycut from 5.85 and 6.35. Now, the real question is what the salary amount is in years 3 -5. If they in fact pay the league minimum for 1 and 2 that leaves 10.66MM of salary to allocate over 3 years. I am guessing the salaries will be approximately 3 million in year 3, 3.66 million in year 4 and 4 million in year 5. If they keep him for 3 years the effective contract will be approximately 3 years for $ 14.34MM or 4.78 per year.

Is he getting more than he did in his old deal? Yes. Is it less than 5.85 and 6.35? Obviously. Is that a "pay cut". I would say that a difference of 2.98MM and 3.48MM respectively is but I can also see what Schneed is looking at as well. At the end of the day if he signs a deal that lets them pay him the veteran minimum in '07 and '08 that is a huge help to the team with the cap moving higher and higher over time.

I've bolded the statements showing where your reasoning is off. Jansen's CAP NUMBER was 5.85 and 6.35 in 2008. That does not mean he was going to get paid that much. Included in those numbers is the signing bonus he received when he first signed the deal 3 or 4 years ago. He was only scheduled to make somewhere between 4 and 5 million in base salary each of 2007 and 2008. So instead of making something like $9 million over those two years, he's now making $10 million in the signing bonus, plus another $500K in vet minimum salaries each year.

It's a pay raise.

Don't get cap numbers confused with cash flows.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

Thank you for the clarification, Joe Mendes, but I think that most of the people on the site (including me) understand why the team restructures and extends. Of course restructuring the current deal has nothing to do with this scenario and your hypothetical restructuring would be an idiotic move as it would leave the Redskins without a right tackle and with a 4.6 million dollar dead cap hit for '08. "Duhhh!!"

My original comment was that Jansen took a pay cut (meaning he took less money to help out the team). That is a fairly open ended statement so I can understand why Schneed would disagree. Here is the scenario from my perspective:

Jansen was scheduled to make $5.85 MM and $6.35 MM respectively in 2007 and 2008 (if they kept him). Obviously, the team felt that those salaries are too high.

...

Is he getting more than he did in his old deal? Yes. Is it less than 5.85 and 6.35? Obviously. Is that a "pay cut". I would say that a difference of 2.98MM and 3.48MM respectively is but I can also see what Schneed is looking at as well. At the end of the day if he signs a deal that lets them pay him the veteran minimum in '07 and '08 that is a huge help to the team with the cap moving higher and higher over time.

As schneed has pointed out, you're looking at cash flow - not salary (which seems to me to contradict your statement that you get the purpose of restructuring). As for the everyone getting it - so sorry, didn't mean to intrude upon your brilliance. It just seemed to me that you were indicating that Jansen was somehow taking less money under the new deal than with the extension which simply does not follow. No need to get belligerent.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

Thank you for the clarification, Joe Mendes, but I think that most of the people on the site (including me) understand why the team restructures and extends. Of course restructuring the current deal has nothing to do with this scenario and your hypothetical restructuring would be an idiotic move as it would leave the Redskins without a right tackle and with a 4.6 million dollar dead cap hit for '08. "Duhhh!!"

My original comment was that Jansen took a pay cut (meaning he took less money to help out the team). That is a fairly open ended statement so I can understand why Schneed would disagree. Here is the scenario from my perspective:

Jansen was scheduled to make $5.85 MM and $6.35 MM respectively in 2007 and 2008 (if they kept him). Obviously, the team felt that those salaries are too high.

Jansen's last deal was effectively 4 years for $15.428 or $3.86 million per year (pretty reasonable actually).

For argument's sake let's say his new contract was a straight line deal or $4.6M per year. Is that a paycut from 5.85 and 6.35, Yes. Is it a paycut from the context of his old deal, No (but it depends on your viewpoint).

The new deal pays 10 for a bonus. That is a base of 2.2 over 5 years and he gets the minimum for the first two (670M) or an average of 2.87 per year. Well, you don't have to be JoeRedskin to figure out that 2.87 is a paycut from 5.85 and 6.35. Now, the real question is what the salary amount is in years 3 -5. If they in fact pay the league minimum for 1 and 2 that leaves 10.66MM of salary to allocate over 3 years. I am guessing the salaries will be approximately 3 million in year 3, 3.66 million in year 4 and 4 million in year 5. If they keep him for 3 years the effective contract will be approximately 3 years for $ 14.34MM or 4.78 per year.

Is he getting more than he did in his old deal? Yes. Is it less than 5.85 and 6.35? Obviously. Is that a "pay cut". I would say that a difference of 2.98MM and 3.48MM respectively is but I can also see what Schneed is looking at as well. At the end of the day if he signs a deal that lets them pay him the veteran minimum in '07 and '08 that is a huge help to the team with the cap moving higher and higher over time.

What ever happened to Joe Mendes? Didn't he get the boot becasue he was standing up to Danny Boi and Vinny?

[Beemnseven]

Glad to see LaCanfora was 100% WRONG with his red flags regarding Jansen.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

This move likely frees approximately $3.5 million in salary cap space for 2007. Dockery's 2007 cap number, when signed, will likely come in under $3.5 million against the cap.

It appears that the team may have been hesitant to finalize a deal with Dockery until they had an agreement with Jansen to clear cap space. Jansen was the first domino in the line, Dock should be next.

Yeah sounds pretty logical to me.