Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

The big issue that isn't being discussed is Israel. That is the primary reason why terrorists hate us. Not because of our way of life -- because we support Israel, and Israel dominates the region.

I think that simplifies the "war on terrorism." A lot of people tend to talk about "the terrorists" as though they are a single entity, with a single set of gripes, and a single strategy. That oversimplification is IMO, well.....simply wrong.

There are certainly terrorists whose main gripe with the U.S. is its support of Israel. There are other terrorists who are upset with other aspects of U.S. foreign policy (e.g., stationing troops in the Middle East).

There are also, however, a great deal of other terrorists who in fact find Western culture demonic. If you listen to a great number of Islamic radicals, they will tell you that democracy is evil because the only law that should govern is the law of the Koran. The American way of life is the epitome of everything that is wrong with democracy - it is hedonistic, materialistic, sexual, etc.

There are other terrorists who actually want to establish a caliphate extending from Spain in the Northeast (which was once ruled by the Moors - Muslims) to all of Africa in the South and much of Southeast Asia (which has large Muslim populations). This single "kingdom" would ruled by ayatollahs who strictly follow the Koran.

My only point is that there are a lot of different terrorist groups. They do not all agree on a single objective or ideology. In fact, that is why you see so many terrorist groups killing one another. So, it's wrong to say that U.S. foreign policy drives all terrorists. U.S. foreign policy may motivate some terrorists, but not all. And while I hate to agree with G.W., he's right when he says that some terrorists "hate us for our way of life."

DISCLAIMER: The vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving and decent. In talking about various "terrorist groups" above, I am obviously only referring to the violent minority.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Hog1

I would definately be in some agreement with you. Are saying that is a good thing, or a bad thing?

I'd say it is probably good and bad.

The real reason I mentioned it was because of the following:
1. We will NEVER stop supporting Israel.
2. The terrorists will ALWAYS hate us as long as we support Israel.

Therefore, there is NO possible diplomatic solution. So, the only logical solution is to kill all the terrorists, but that is impossible. It is a lose-lose situation.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by dmek25

hog1 good post. i am the type of person that would rather hear nothing, then hear a bunch of lies. most of the American public cant handle the truth( sound familiar?) but instead of lying, how about just keeping quiet, not lying and trying to trick people?

I agree, I don't like being treated like a sheep either, but I cannot deny that Americans have given the Govt reason not to tell us the truth in all circumstances. Maybe nothing is better than something HTTR

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I'd say it is probably good and bad.

The real reason I mentioned it was because of the following:
1. We will NEVER stop supporting Israel.
2. The terrorists will ALWAYS hate us as long as we support Israel.

Therefore, there is NO possible diplomatic solution. So, the only logical solution is to kill all the terrorists, but that is impossible. It is a lose-lose situation.

I agree with you, we support Israel=they hate us. Can't stop terrorism, but chasing there ass's all over the world has kept their heads (and no more 9-11, so far) down....................IMO

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

It's not like the government "lying" to the people is anything new. Politicians, even well-intentioned ones, have always had to "sell" their policies to the public.

Did Bush "lie" about the WMDs? In my opinion he did not. Just about every intelligence agency around the world agreed that Iraq had them (including the French and Russian intelligence services). Did Bush mislead the American public about how much evidence there was of the WMDs? Yes, but that was not in bad-faith as everyone thought the WMDs were there but the evidence was not solid.

For me, the interesting question about our entry into Iraq was not whether Bush lied about WMDs, it is whether even if Iraq did have WMDs should we have gone into Iraq. IMO we should not have and Bush was simply wrong.

As for what to do today, I think the whole WMD issue is water under the bridge. Everyone knows it was a mistake to go into Iraq, that Bush lied or misled us, and that we cannot undo what has already taken place. The issue today should be, "How are we going to fix this mess?"

[saden1]

1. You can't stop determined people. One of the greatest things about mankind is it's ability to adapt.
2. You can't win a global war. It's absurd that some think the US could win "the global war on terror."
3. If you keep telling people what they can or can't do they'll eventually give you the finger and do as they please.
4. The greatest threat to us isn't from dirty bombs or military hardware but rather from biological weapons. You can't stop people from cooking up a virus in some remote location.
5. If you aren't talking to people then you don't know who and what you are dealing with.
6. Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

It's not like the government "lying" to the people is anything new. Politicians, even well-intentioned ones, have always had to "sell" their policies to the public.

Did Bush "lie" about the WMDs? In my opinion he did not. Just about every intelligence agency around the world agreed that Iraq had them (including the French and Russian intelligence services). Did Bush mislead the American public about how much evidence there was of the WMDs? Yes, but that was not in bad-faith as everyone thought the WMDs were there but the evidence was not solid.

For me, the interesting question about our entry into Iraq was not whether Bush lied about WMDs, it is whether even if Iraq did have WMDs should we have gone into Iraq. IMO we should not have and Bush was simply wrong.

As for what to do today, I think the whole WMD issue is water under the bridge. Everyone knows it was a mistake to go into Iraq, that Bush lied or misled us, and that we cannot undo what has already taken place. The issue today should be, "How are we going to fix this mess?"

I think that the timing was bad but I think at some point in time we would have to face this problem in Iraq. Its tough to tell. If left to go as he pleased could we have been just waiting for ticking tomb bomb? One thing we do know that he was willing to envade another country so is it that hard to believe that he would never attack us? Not a military type attack but more of a sucker punch type of attack. I guess that one we will never know which is not a bad thing. Is Iran another one that if left to do as they please will never attack us? I just think that one of these nut jobs will want to go down in history as one that attacked the most powerful nation in the world and not just in the form of a terrorist type attack.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

I could never see Iran attacking America without attacking Israel first. IMO, if Iran has aspirations to attack anyone, it will be Israel. They just know that if they do so, America will be bombing their asses into oblivion. But, I do think they are prepared for that. Also, most of their important bases are underneath mountains. I'm not sure if we have bombs that can penetrate mountains. So, I am not sure if we could destroy their most precious military infrastructure without going in on the ground.

[dmek25]

i dont its if we have the weaponary, i think its if we have someone that has enough "balls" to do it

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I could never see Iran attacking America without attacking Israel first. IMO, if Iran has aspirations to attack anyone, it will be Israel. They just know that if they do so, America will be bombing their asses into oblivion. But, I do think they are prepared for that. Also, most of their important bases are underneath mountains. I'm not sure if we have bombs that can penetrate mountains. So, I am not sure if we could destroy their most precious military infrastructure without going in on the ground.

Yes I believe that we do have bombs that can penetrate the ground before they go off but how deep they go I don't know. I do know we have some that will go down a cave then go off and just fry people and not other things. I'm not sure if Israel is attacked by Iran we would get invloved because they have the weapons to defend their self. Now if it was a multiple of other country's we may but I think that would be the last thing we do because it could esculate into something much bigger.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think its hysterical that everything that is wrong with America is always, somehow bill Clinton's fault. and the demos had the same info, but the difference is now that they realize they were wrong, they are trying to fix it. not being a cement head, like bush, and refusing to take blame, admitting mistakes, and trying to fix the problem

We have no idea right now whether or not the decisions the Bush Administration are making are helping to fix or hindering the progress of the country. That's 100% media factor. I could say right now that Mario Williams' legacy is one of failure, but we've yet to see the effects that his career will have on the Houston Texans and the NFL. History isn't defined over short period.

What we can tell is this; the decisions made by our administrations of the past have created the situation of the present. It would be foolish to blame it all on Clinton or all on Bush Sr. The effects we are dealing with now are comprised of many, many, many decisions going back past Reagan, past Carter, past LBJ, even to the FDR days. It's impossible to fault individuals for these decisions. No one man has the wisdom to look 20-50 years into the future to see the long term consequences of their actions.

This mess was created by past figures and the Bush Administration isn't solely responsible for cleaning it up. Another administration will take over in 2 years and this middle east issue will still be an issue.

Maybe 20 years from now, we will be able to see if Bush started the process of fixing the middle east, or if he indeed mucked up the situation even further. Don't be foolish enough to think we will know by today, tomorrow, or the next day, and espicially don't be foolish enough to think we already know. We are human beings, not prophets.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Yes I believe that we do have bombs that can penetrate the ground before they go off but how deep they go I don't know. I do know we have some that will go down a cave then go off and just fry people and not other things. I'm not sure if Israel is attacked by Iran we would get invloved because they have the weapons to defend their self. Now if it was a multiple of other country's we may but I think that would be the last thing we do because it could esculate into something much bigger.

Well if Iran was going to attack Israel, I'd think they'd do it through long range missile strikes. They don't have any continguous landmass to Israel. They can't just go rolling through Iraq on their way to Israel. And Iran doesn't have a navy.

If Iran is going to attack Israel, they'd likely use one of those long range missiles they have, and would probably try to arm it with a nuclear warhead. If they did that, yeah, we'd get involved.

But if they try to roll up on Israel with a pitiful force like Hezbolla did, then yeah, we'd just let Israel take care of it. Israel is our ally; any serious threat to their security would definitely bring about a US response.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

We have no idea right now whether or not the decisions the Bush Administration are making are helping to fix or hindering the progress of the country. That's 100% media factor. I could say right now that Mario Williams' legacy is one of failure, but we've yet to see the effects that his career will have on the Houston Texans and the NFL. History isn't defined over short period.

What we can tell is this; the decisions made by our administrations of the past have created the situation of the present. It would be foolish to blame it all on Clinton or all on Bush Sr. The effects we are dealing with now are comprised of many, many, many decisions going back past Reagan, past Carter, past LBJ, even to the FDR days. It's impossible to fault individuals for these decisions. No one man has the wisdom to look 20-50 years into the future to see the long term consequences of their actions.

This mess was created and the Bush Administration isn't solely responsible for cleaning it up. Another administration will take over in 2 years and this middle east issue will still be an issue.

Maybe 20 years from now, we will be able to see if Bush started the process of fixing the middle east, or if he indeed mucked up the situation even further. Don't be foolish enough to think we will know by today, tomorrow, or the next day, and espicially don't be foolish enough to think we already know. We are human beings, not prophets.

Great post, Gtripp.

[dmek25]

good post gtripp. the only problem i have with any of the united states dealings in the middle east are we cannot understand a society the breeds killings for the sake of religion. these people have been killing each other for the last 2000 years(at least) and will continue to do so, regardless of what we do. they teach it at a young age, it is philosophy, a way of life. and what we accomplish now is strictly short term

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

As others have pointed out GTripp, that was a really nice post. But, I think that whether you agreed or disagreed with the decision to go to war in Iraq, that mess is squarely on G.W.'s shoulders.

On a somewhat related point, I ran across an interesting Fox News poll (yes, Fox News). In it Respondents are asked whether they want Bush's plan for Iraq to fail and a resounding 34% of Democrats said "Yes." Why on earth would you want (as opposed to expect) the plan to fail? I'm a Dem-leaning independent, but that kind of stuff makes me want to puke and join the Repubs. Click on the link and look at question #21 http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/...oxnewspoll.pdf.