Here Goes Nothing ...

[That Guy]

the middle class an wealthy have mainly already fled iraq, the baath party was completely disolved (which was a terrible mistake, since that killed ALL the operational knowledge of the country), the afgan poppy farmers present a challenge to manage, since they can't make money or build the economy of afghanistan without, you know, making poppy (and they're a sizable chunk of the population).

america has only had two extremely successful nation building efforts in many many attempts. we oversaw the infrastructure construction in the phillipines a long time ago, and slightly more recently, the reuilding of japan after WWII.
both countries had very supportive populations that accepted the help.

in iraq, it's closer to some african nations in that there's no real national unity, only ethnic unity (kurd/shite/sunni), and even within that there are divisions in religion extremism, various anarchists groups, iranian involvement, etc.

the only real quick way to solve it is to divide the country and let them self rule and HOPE beyond hope that doesn't devolve into a territorial pissing match between those factions and neighboring countries... which it will.

there's no real good answer beside turning it into a really restrictive police state, which, in and of itself, it's a pretty bad solution.

the local population has to support the effort, but they've been taught their whole lives that america is bad and have a massive influx of negative views from middle eastern TV stations. there's also no real national unifying figure to help either.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by That Guy

the middle class an wealthy have mainly already fled iraq, the baath party was completely disolved (which was a terrible mistake, since that killed ALL the operational knowledge of the country), the afgan poppy farmers present a challenge to manage, since they can't make money or build the economy of afghanistan without, you know, making poppy (and they're a sizable chunk of the population).

america has only had two extremely successful nation building efforts in many many attempts. we oversaw the infrastructure construction in the phillipines a long time ago, and slightly more recently, the reuilding of japan after WWII.
both countries had very supportive populations that accepted the help.

in iraq, it's closer to some african nations in that there's no real national unity, only ethnic unity (kurd/shite/sunni), and even within that there are divisions in religion extremism, various anarchists groups, iranian involvement, etc.

the only real quick way to solve it is to divide the country and let them self rule and HOPE beyond hope that doesn't devolve into a territorial pissing match between those factions and neighboring countries... which it will.

there's no real good answer beside turning it into a really restrictive police state, which, in and of itself, it's a pretty bad solution.

the local population has to support the effort, but they've been taught their whole lives that america is bad and have a massive influx of negative views from middle eastern TV stations. there's also no real national unifying figure to help either.

EXCELLENT post, That Guy. Nice historical perspective, there were some things in there I was unaware of. Learn something new every day.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by That Guy

america has only had two extremely successful nation building efforts in many many attempts. we oversaw the infrastructure construction in the phillipines a long time ago, and slightly more recently, the reuilding of japan after WWII.
both countries had very supportive populations that accepted the help. .

I think you could add West Germany to the list.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

I think you could add West Germany to the list.

And Kosovo.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

And Kosovo.

And the Brits built a democracy in India (granted it was upon the shell of colonialism).

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

And Kosovo.

wasn't a rebuilding. it was a UN/NATO provisional government. not quite the same.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by That Guy

wasn't a rebuilding. it was a UN/NATO provisional government. not quite the same.

You're right, it wasn't a rebuilding, it was building a relatively autonomous government in Kosovo where none previously existed.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

You're right, it wasn't a rebuilding, it was building a relatively autonomous government in Kosovo where none previously existed.

right, but japan, phillipines, and iraq involve new self governance AND infrastructe (water, power, road work, economy, etc).

[Beemnseven]

I have an idea, from now on, why don't we leave it to the oppressed people of the world to overthrow their own dictators?

There's not ONE American soldier, airman, marine, or sailor that is worth dying to protect the schlums who won't stand up to protect themselves.

Everybody gets the government/dictator they deserve.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

I have an idea, from now on, why don't we leave it to the oppressed people of the world to overthrow their own dictators?

There's not ONE American soldier, airman, marine, or sailor that is worth dying to protect the schlums who won't stand up to protect themselves.

Everybody gets the government/dictator they deserve.

I think we'd be the united states of germany in the 1940's with this kind of thinking.

I think the point your trying to get at is that we shouldn't be the world police anymore. That's too much of a burden, takes too many resources, and quite frankly isn't working.

I was just having a couple of drinks with my good friend who just got back from a year long tour in the worst part of Iraq, and believe me, he feels the same. He see's alot of hope for the people, but is really fed up with alot of the political reasons given for the start of the war now.

He was telling me that he thinks we need to finish this war, hand the nation of Iraq a feasable nation back, and then stay out of the middle east.

It's really a mess out there and wasn't worth it. At this point though, we need to set up Iraq's economy and then leave, thats the most important thing.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I think we'd be the united states of germany in the 1940's with this kind of thinking.

I think the point your trying to get at is that we shouldn't be the world police anymore. That's too much of a burden, takes too many resources, and quite frankly isn't working.

I was just having a couple of drinks with my good friend who just got back from a year long tour in the worst part of Iraq, and believe me, he feels the same. He see's alot of hope for the people, but is really fed up with alot of the political reasons given for the start of the war now.

He was telling me that he thinks we need to finish this war, hand the nation of Iraq a feasable nation back, and then stay out of the middle east.

It's really a mess out there and wasn't worth it. At this point though, we need to set up Iraq's economy and then leave, thats the most important thing.

Self-Appointed World Police would be more correct.

As far as Germany goes, certainly the argument could be made that our involvement in WWII was necessary since Germany took the time to declare war on us first. Not only that, German U-boats wrecked havoc on U.S.-British shipping lanes in the North Atlantic prior to our intervention in Europe.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

I think you could add West Germany to the list.

west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by That Guy

west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.

You're right the Americans had some help from the British, just like they are getting in Iraq. I guess the French did get a token portion in the South. The reunification of both East and West Germany took ~44 years but West Germany (Bonn Republic) was relatively stable in a much shorter time period.

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by That Guy

west germany wasn't just america, and it wasn't unified either. there were other countries helping there and it took 44 years to finally get it right.

This is why I think it's so hard to say "the US needs to be out of a completely rebuilt Iraq by year XXXX." Maybe it's our culture, but it seems like no one wants to face the fact that rebuilding a nation, especially one that still has to deal with outside influences that want to build it into a decidely anti-Western state, is going to take a very long time.