Maybe Vinny Cerrato isn't the Anti-Christ

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

True but I'd lay that at Snyder's feet, not Gibbs.

Well it's easy to blame Snyder, but if you remember when Gibbs was hired he and Snyder were interviewed and the statement was made that all decisions were Gibbs responsibility, Gibbs has final say on all moves in every aspect of this team, all Snyder does is fit the bill for Gibbs. This is not a dictatorship like Steinbrenner, Snyder is probably the only one in the organization who is succeeding at his job and that's paying people. The only failure he may be responsible for is allowing Gibbs to maintain total control, but not even I will fault him for that, regardless of how bad Gibbs has been he's earned the right to fail, and although when it comes to personel he's lost, I understand the loyalty there, as well as with all the fans, but the fact still remains when it comes to personel he just doesn't get it.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by offiss

Well it's easy to blame Snyder, but if you remember when Gibbs was hired he and Snyder were interviewed and the statement was made that all decisions were Gibbs responsibility, Gibbs has final say on all moves in every aspect of this team, all Snyder does is fit the bill for Gibbs. This is not a dictatorship like Steinbrenner, Snyder is probably the only one in the organization who is succeeding at his job and that's paying people. The only failure he may be responsible for is allowing Gibbs to maintain total control, but not even I will fault him for that, regardless of how bad Gibbs has been he's earned the right to fail, and although when it comes to personel he's lost, I understand the loyalty there, as well as with all the fans, but the fact still remains when it comes to personel he just doesn't get it.

Gibbs doesn't write the checks or structure the contracts.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

If there's anything negative I can say about the current coaching staff, I think they place FAR too much emphasis on having players with experience.

- Williams is ALWAYS trying to find guys that have played in his system.
- Williams AND Gibbs are always wanting people who are VETS.
- Williams benches his rookies, no matter how they're drafting.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

If there's anything negative I can say about the current coaching staff, I think they place FAR too much emphasis on having players with experience.

- Williams is ALWAYS trying to find guys that have played in his system.
- Williams AND Gibbs are always wanting people who are VETS.
- Williams benches his rookies, no matter how they're drafting.

Outstanding point MC, and your dead on with that statement, it's as if they don't want to spend the time preparing inexperienced players and short cut that process with vets who are not as talented but more knowledegable.

[TenandSix:Unacceptable]

I think the talent acquisition on the team has been suspect durring the VC period. I honestly think the Redskins would be in better position if I was the dir ector of personel. A monkey could get the same success as Vinny has gotten. And although I do agree that it is Snyder and now Gibbs who tend to overpay, wouldn´t a good personel guy say, "don´t overpay such and such player, because of such and such reason", or really promote a more effective overall strategy. If Vinny doesn't know that our player acquisition system is flawed, then his judgement is flawed. If he does know and he doesn't step up to the plate and tell the Boss how to do it better, once again it seems to me that he is blameworthy.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by TenandSix:Unacceptable

I think the talent acquisition on the team has been suspect durring the VC period. I honestly think the Redskins would be in better position if I was the dir ector of personel. A monkey could get the same success as Vinny has gotten. And although I do agree that it is Snyder and now Gibbs who tend to overpay, wouldn´t a good personel guy say, "don´t overpay such and such player, because of such and such reason", or really promote a more effective overall strategy. If Vinny doesn't know that our player acquisition system is flawed, then his judgement is flawed. If he does know and he doesn't step up to the plate and tell the Boss how to do it better, once again it seems to me that he is blameworthy.

And if the Boss disagrees? Is he supposed to take his marbles and go home?

[TenandSix:Unacceptable]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

And if the Boss disagrees? Is he supposed to take his marbles and go home?

And why would Vinny be so afraid of losing his job if he did have the sense and the cajones to speak up?

Because no one else would hire him, that's why. He doesn't bring much to the table and the rest of the league knows that.

And don't get me wrong, Snyder is very much responsible for keeping this parrot around. Gibbs is coming around because he knows how to adapt. Vinny is the NFL equivalent of an upper management corporate lackey in a company that ultimately sells a sub-par product due in large part to said lackeys incompetence.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by TenandSix:Unacceptable

I think the talent acquisition on the team has been suspect durring the VC period. I honestly think the Redskins would be in better position if I was the dir ector of personel. A monkey could get the same success as Vinny has gotten. And although I do agree that it is Snyder and now Gibbs who tend to overpay, wouldn´t a good personel guy say, "don´t overpay such and such player, because of such and such reason", or really promote a more effective overall strategy. If Vinny doesn't know that our player acquisition system is flawed, then his judgement is flawed. If he does know and he doesn't step up to the plate and tell the Boss how to do it better, once again it seems to me that he is blameworthy.

So just to be clear, you think the talent is suspect or the means to acquire said talent?

[TenandSix:Unacceptable]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

So just to be clear, you think the talent is suspect or the means to acquire said talent?

Both.

Which makes it very hard to only blame VC. Obviously, as far as the draft goes, we haven't given him much ammunition. Still, not an exemplary record by any stretch on college scouting and picking the right players in the draft. Also, I imagine that if I'm in his position I put my foot down when you are telling me about a lot of these deals involving draft picks. A stronger individual would have basically said, "if you surrender those picks for those guys, I walk."

His ability to properly scout FA players has been suspect. I am not in the JG, "Well look at Springs, Griffin and Washington I don't know where we'd be without them", camp. I think there have been many more misses than hits on that front. Although I don't believe he is the only problem, I don't think VC is part of the solution to this mess. I think getting rid of him would be addition by subtraction.

Moreover, I think we can all agree that the overall strategy of the team in terms of player aquisition needs an overhall. The good news is that there are signs of those changes this offseason. The bad news is that we are still paying for mistakes we made in the past, and we still have the same people deciding who's good and who's not.

And I don't want to be perceived as thinking that VC is the end-all-be-all and that once he is replaced by someone better and wiser we will suddenly have nothing to worry about. The issue is not only scouting but obvoiusly also has to do with what we do with said info. If I am not mistaken, Vinny's job is more to compile the reports on these guys with the help of his scouts and then let The Danny and JG do the rest, which obviously does't recommend those two highly in that regard either. Sadly, it appears that Snyder and JG are making faulty desions on top of faulty information.

My question would be this: if you are starting a new NFL franchise tomorrow and Vinny is available, do you take him?

Since the answer to that question is most likely "no", why is he still here?

[SmootSmack]

I brought this up a few months ago but I really think we need to take a closer look at the actual scouts. Here's why. It's the scouts that are going to all the college and pro games, doing the research on these guys and compiling the information for the upper management to make their decisions; a lot of it based on the data the scouts have provided. It's like jobs a lot of us have. I mean my bosses make company decisions based on the information I and my peers provide them. When my boss, for example, goes to NASCAR to negotiate a new tv contract he goes there with the ammo I've provided him.

Now that's not to say that he, or in this case Vinny blind use the information the scouts provide. That's clearly not the case. But I think it has a bigger say in the decision making process than we may believe.

I'm not one to pimp other fan sites but this is the best thing they have ever posted

EXTREMESKINS.com - Final transcript of the Vinny Cerrato Chat.

[TenandSix:Unacceptable]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I brought this up a few months ago but I really think we need to take a closer look at the actual scouts. Here's why. It's the scouts that are going to all the college and pro games, doing the research on these guys and compiling the information for the upper management to make their decisions; a lot of it based on the data the scouts have provided. It's like jobs a lot of us have. I mean my bosses make company decisions based on the information I and my peers provide them. When my boss, for example, goes to NASCAR to negotiate a new tv contract he goes there with the ammo I've provided him.

Now that's not to say that he, or in this case Vinny blind use the information the scouts provide. That's clearly not the case. But I think it has a bigger say in the decision making process than we may believe.

I'm not one to pimp other fan sites but this is the best thing they have ever posted

EXTREMESKINS.com - Final transcript of the Vinny Cerrato Chat.

Thanks for the link, that was indeed very informative. Obviously they are not half-assing the evaluation process. The system as a whole seems sound. Actually, I quite like the set-up, it seems hands on and fair for everyone involved. The results have obviously been lacking so there's clearly room for improvement.

Also, it looks like Vinny's job is mainly as an organizer and administrator between the scouts and the coaches. From looking at that and considering what is wrong with the team, on the surface some of the changes that should probably be made seem pretty simple.

1: We need a similar organizational method of determining the value of draft picks. We give them away, and it hurts us. Who is responsible for this and are they going to change it like I assume they are?

2: How do we establish the players "value" commiserate with his ranking? A guy might be the top rated free agent, and better than anyone we have, but there seems to be a breakdown in how much to pay those guys. Also, the fact that we are maxed out at the cap every year seems to make it impossible to cut players like AA and B Lloyd who are busts, or re-sign players like Smoot or Pierce who everyone likes. We would really have an advantage over people if we had the "cash" advantage Vinny notes, and we were well under the cap. We could absorb the cap hit of cutting players, and outbid other teams by simply "outcashing" them. We could essentially duplicate market value offers just throw in more guaranteed cash. We seem to go above market value AND outcash which helps put us in the cap bind.

I don't know if we can do this while signing expensive players every year. To me it seems like an effective method would be to do something similar to farming techniques when they let the land lie fallow every few years. Sign players you see as upgrades for two years, and then every third year you cut dead weight and sign next to no one. Or simply be more patient. Maybe you can get a better upgrade if you wait a year. In any case, the "upgrades" we make seem to not match up in terms of how much we pay the replacement against the guy he is replacing. It looks like no drastic moves will be made capwise while Gibbs is here. Let's face it, we are in "win now" mode. But if I'm Snyder, the first thing I address when Gibbs leaves is the cap. His best move might be to fire himself as chief negotiator or have more strict guidelines in place so he can't overspend needlessly.

If the cap problems we have were taken care of and a better system of putting a "value" on players was established, we would be in position to pick players based on their value and Redskins ranking combined. Which leads me to the Redskins ranking.

You have to take a long, hard look at VC and the pro and college scouts. Are we coming up with bad scouting reports? They say they are talking to everyone and their momma about these guys, watching all the tapes, etc. Why is the team seemingly lacking in depth and talent? Why do we pick so many players who bust? Don't get me wrong, we've got some horses but some of the age, lack of depth and holes that we can't fill because we have no draft picks and cap space are striking. It would seem that our team has a good deal of character and heart, but lacks talent. In our system it seems a bit hard to place blame because everyone is involved. Perhaps you should have a GM type "overseer" on these scouts who carries extra weight in the evaluation process both with the scouts and the players they are scouting. I imagine that VC is that guy. If so you would have to consider replacing him or keeping him on at an organizational capacity if you really think he has that much to offer. Either he is making bad judgements, or the scouts are. In either case, heads must roll if they can't fix it, starting with him. However, Vinny is obviously not to blame in large part for the overspending and the draft pick fiasco, but at the same time, I wonder if a stronger personality could have made a stand in some of these egregious cases and gotten better results.

Sorry this post is so damn long, but to wrap up...

I think if we take better care of our picks and spend a little more wisely, all we would have to do is make the right Redskins reports and get our guys. If that system is in place and the Vinny and the scouts don't succeed: Fire the living shit out of them!

[Pocket$ $traight]

I don't know why Vinny gets any criticism, he is a puppet. If the front office attitude is different this year, that means The Danny's attitude is different this year.

Hell, I can't complain about one move this offseason.

[dmek25]

the article with cerrato should be read by all skins fans. seems like he was being very truthful, and showed some good insight

[dmek25]

the skins have one pick because of past dealings. they haven't traded future picks( so far) and have kept free agent signings to low key guys. it looks like someone is learning as you go. offiss, i don't know why you cant let this Marc Brunell thing go. i agree, it was a screw up. but thats old news. Brunell , to me, is an adequate back up. and doesn't make a ton of money. but as much as Gibbs was wrong about Brunell, you were about Ramsey. so lets get over it

[offiss]

Originally Posted by dmek25

the skins have one pick because of past dealings. they haven't traded future picks( so far) and have kept free agent signings to low key guys. it looks like someone is learning as you go. offiss, i don't know why you cant let this Marc Brunell thing go. i agree, it was a screw up. but thats old news. Brunell , to me, is an adequate back up. and doesn't make a ton of money. but as much as Gibbs was wrong about Brunell, you were about Ramsey. so lets get over it

I was just making a point about how Gibbs can't let go when he fails, he tries to drive a square peg through a round hole, it seems your the one that has to continually try to throw Ramsey into the mix everytime I bash Brunell to somehow lesson the blow of responsibility for Gibbs who should have been far more informed than myself on the actual talent level of Brunell, yet he wasen't. If Gibbs had his way Theisman or Riggins wouldn't have been around when he took over back in 81'. In the end I will be more right about Ramsey than Gibbs ever was about Brunell, you see Ramsey will have opportunities, Brunell? Well so long as Gibbs is coach he will have opportunity, to bad he wont do anything with it. Even if I am equally wrong about Ramsey in the end Gibbs still loses because Ramsey wasen't signed to mega million dollar contract. Just because Gibbs say's Ramsey can't play means absolutly nothing to me, after all he also felt Joey T. couldn't play, as well as thinking Brunell could, let's just say his judgement has been a little off.

I probably should have used some of the other free agent blunders to make you happy and left the 43 million dollar one out.

the skins have one pick because of past dealings. they haven't traded future picks( so far) and have kept free agent signings to low key guys. it looks like someone is learning as you go

This is your case? Because we have nothing left to deal, and no money to pay anyone if we did, because of how Gibbs has run the personel dept. has nothing to do with it? And the draft is a month a way, we still have time to screw up. I do expect London Fletcher to set the world on fire though at 32 years old, it's a great move considering there are no MLB's in college football that are available in this years draft. If Gibbs truely changed his way's Fletcher wouldn't be here, but like a moth to a flame he couldn't resist, and as usual next year we will be dabating who we should get to replace Fletcher, and on it goes.