Pastabelly bashes J. Gibbs

[skinsfan_nn]

I agree with both you folks nc & gtrip.

This thread is like pissing in the wind. If anyone doesn't know enough about Joe Gibbs, PAST & PRESENT, and the knowledge and know how to turn around an organization that he has. They are clueless.

Stick with the one of the Greatest coachs to ever coach this game, he will prove these na sayers 100% wrong, very quietly. You can NEVER underestimate Joe, soon as you do he will make you look like a FOOL!

[GusFrerotte]

Not a Pastabelly or SI fan at all, but I don't think Gibbs is going to right the ship to the point of another glorious era like 1982-1992. Fact of the matter is the FO screwed up too badly during Spurrier, then on top of that Gibbs and the FO messed it up more. We wasted 2 potential playoff seasons by Gibbs keeping Brunell in for far too long when Mark stunk up the place something terrible. In '04 he put Patrick in a few games too late, when a couple more victories could have meant playoffs, same thing with JC last season. The moves via Free Agency have been a mixed bag at best, but overall a big waste in $$$$$$$. Archuleta, Patten, the FA D linemen we have, etc are total busts. Brunell is the biggest bust of all, costing us what should have been the aforementioned 2 playoff seasons, when on paper we were a powerhouse that should have annihilated the other teams in our division(especially Dallas). Now Lloyd looks to be a future bust unless he gets it going this season, and Portis is going to be a 50+ million dollar part time player with Betts getting about half the carries probably. Don't get me going on the draft. Only decent draft we have had IMHO during Gibbs II was when we traded up for the first 2 rounders in JC and Rogers. THe other drafts made us look like we didn't have a clue or any concrete plan to utilize it to build a team.

[skinsfan_nn]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

Not a Pastabelly or SI fan at all, but I don't think Gibbs is going to right the ship to the point of another glorious era like 1982-1992. Fact of the matter is the FO screwed up too badly during Spurrier, then on top of that Gibbs and the FO messed it up more. We wasted 2 potential playoff seasons by Gibbs keeping Brunell in for far too long when Mark stunk up the place something terrible. In '04 he put Patrick in a few games too late, when a couple more victories could have meant playoffs, same thing with JC last season. The moves via Free Agency have been a mixed bag at best, but overall a big waste in $$$$$$$. Archuleta, Patten, the FA D linemen we have, etc are total busts. Brunell is the biggest bust of all, costing us what should have been the aforementioned 2 playoff seasons, when on paper we were a powerhouse that should have annihilated the other teams in our division(especially Dallas). Now Lloyd looks to be a future bust unless he gets it going this season, and Portis is going to be a 50+ million dollar part time player with Betts getting about half the carries probably. Don't get me going on the draft. Only decent draft we have had IMHO during Gibbs II was when we traded up for the first 2 rounders in JC and Rogers. THe other drafts made us look like we didn't have a clue or any concrete plan to utilize it to build a team.

With a screen name like Gus Frerotte, we have to MUTE you!
Just remember teams don't play on paper, paper doesn't mean jack. Brunell did lead the offense in 05 to the playoffs, and yea Joe Gibbs was also the Coach then to. You left alot of important info out of your book?
Get off the bus GUS.

GIBBS RULES!

[Daseal]

Here’s a write up as to why I don’t trust Gibbs, in the current arangement to turn the skins back into a winner. First of all, let me say I think this is his last year regardless. If he does poorly I think he’s done in the NFL, and if he does well I think he’ll hand over the reigns and it will look as if he righted the franchise, only time would tell if that’s the case. Every year I hear how the Redskins will either a) Go to the playoffs; b) go far in the playoffs; c) Win the Superbowl. Every year I’m skeptical, every year, except this one I buy in. Last year I thought we’d get a wildcard spot in the playoffs and maybe win one game. I was just as far off as most other people, but I refuse to buy the hype anymore.

I think Joe Gibbs has a few major problems as a coach in this era. I feel he hasn’t yet adjusted, and at this point I’m not sure if he will. It doesn’t all have to do with coaching, but I will explain all of my points below.
1) Joe Gibbs lacks the killer instinct. He fails miserably in finishing teams. How many times have we had a lead, run it three times up the middle, punted, and lost the game? The answer is far too many. I’m not saying go balls to the wall in that situation. High percentage passes, mix up the runs, attempt to get the first down. If we don’t give them the ball back, they don’t have a chance. Often times by that point our defense is exhausted from being on the field the whole time.
2) Joe Gibbs in the front office. This doesn’t just go on Joe Gibbs, I don’t feel any coach should have these responsibilities. While some coaches pull it off (such as Andy Reid) the vast majority of coaches can’t. I simply think being a head coach is enough work without having to worry about overseeing scouting, player acquisition, etc. This isn’t to say the coaches shouldn’t be involved in some sense, but most of the work should go to a GM or whatever system the FO sets up.
3) Too willing to give away draft picks like candy. We’re constantly trading up and acting like draft picks are worth nothing. While I think you can often get a very solid veteran for a reasonable draft pick and often it’s a good deal, I’m much more concerned with the fact that we’re constantly trading up in the draft. For instance, do we really feel that trading up for Rocky was worth it? Unless we felt he was a real impact player, then we should have held fast. Even worse than that is how we seem to always give up more than we have to when it comes to trading.

As far as what I think of Gibbs proving something to me. That means consistency from year to year. I’d like to see us build on success from a previous year. We went from a solid regular season finish in 2005, but we came into 2006 flat and never got it together. I put this on Joe Gibbs. I find many of his decisions questionable both in games and when it comes to other facets of the game.

Yes, keep harping on my age. You can be 85 years old and still not know anything about football. I’ve never claimed myself an expert, and I often have strong opinions that people don’t agree with. However, I’m also right more often than I am wrong. I feel that the only thing I remember from Gibbs’ first stint is how much candy 200 bucks buys from winning the pool for vs the Bills is an asset. I’m not blinded by what he did in the past. I’m taking nothing away from what Gibbs did back in his hay day, but it’s a new era and you can’t take a man who has been out of the league for 11 years and act like his resume just continues without a hiccup.

Trust me, I hope more than anyone else that I’m wrong. But I don’t feel Gibbs relates to athletes anymore. He seems like the senile old grandfather when they go into the locker room and show footage. I’m worried he doesn’t connect with the players, and I feel he doesn’t use players correctly. If Gibbs has a great season next year, feel free to bring this thread back up and I’ll eat crow. However, I don’t expect that to be the case.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Here’s a write up as to why I don’t trust Gibbs, in the current arangement to turn the skins back into a winner. First of all, let me say I think this is his last year regardless. If he does poorly I think he’s done in the NFL, and if he does well I think he’ll hand over the reigns and it will look as if he righted the franchise, only time would tell if that’s the case. Every year I hear how the Redskins will either a) Go to the playoffs; b) go far in the playoffs; c) Win the Superbowl. Every year I’m skeptical, every year, except this one I buy in. Last year I thought we’d get a wildcard spot in the playoffs and maybe win one game. I was just as far off as most other people, but I refuse to buy the hype anymore.

I think Joe Gibbs has a few major problems as a coach in this era. I feel he hasn’t yet adjusted, and at this point I’m not sure if he will. It doesn’t all have to do with coaching, but I will explain all of my points below.
1) Joe Gibbs lacks the killer instinct. He fails miserably in finishing teams. How many times have we had a lead, run it three times up the middle, punted, and lost the game? The answer is far too many. I’m not saying go balls to the wall in that situation. High percentage passes, mix up the runs, attempt to get the first down. If we don’t give them the ball back, they don’t have a chance. Often times by that point our defense is exhausted from being on the field the whole time.
2) Joe Gibbs in the front office. This doesn’t just go on Joe Gibbs, I don’t feel any coach should have these responsibilities. While some coaches pull it off (such as Andy Reid) the vast majority of coaches can’t. I simply think being a head coach is enough work without having to worry about overseeing scouting, player acquisition, etc. This isn’t to say the coaches shouldn’t be involved in some sense, but most of the work should go to a GM or whatever system the FO sets up.
3) Too willing to give away draft picks like candy. We’re constantly trading up and acting like draft picks are worth nothing. While I think you can often get a very solid veteran for a reasonable draft pick and often it’s a good deal, I’m much more concerned with the fact that we’re constantly trading up in the draft. For instance, do we really feel that trading up for Rocky was worth it? Unless we felt he was a real impact player, then we should have held fast. Even worse than that is how we seem to always give up more than we have to when it comes to trading.

As far as what I think of Gibbs proving something to me. That means consistency from year to year. I’d like to see us build on success from a previous year. We went from a solid regular season finish in 2005, but we came into 2006 flat and never got it together. I put this on Joe Gibbs. I find many of his decisions questionable both in games and when it comes to other facets of the game.

Yes, keep harping on my age. You can be 85 years old and still not know anything about football. I’ve never claimed myself an expert, and I often have strong opinions that people don’t agree with. However, I’m also right more often than I am wrong. I feel that the only thing I remember from Gibbs’ first stint is how much candy 200 bucks buys from winning the pool for vs the Bills is an asset. I’m not blinded by what he did in the past. I’m taking nothing away from what Gibbs did back in his hay day, but it’s a new era and you can’t take a man who has been out of the league for 11 years and act like his resume just continues without a hiccup.

Trust me, I hope more than anyone else that I’m wrong. But I don’t feel Gibbs relates to athletes anymore. He seems like the senile old grandfather when they go into the locker room and show footage. I’m worried he doesn’t connect with the players, and I feel he doesn’t use players correctly. If Gibbs has a great season next year, feel free to bring this thread back up and I’ll eat crow. However, I don’t expect that to be the case.

I don't know who keeps hyping us to be a great team year in and year out. Before last season, we certainly earned it. We were as good a superbowl pick as any other team. A lot of things broke against us defensively, mainly that age caught up with us in the front 7 seemingly all at the same time. This was certainly a concern going into the season, but it was incredibly unfortuante that so many key players for us hit the wall last year. If that had happened to any other team in the league, they too would have lost at least 10 games. It would be very short sighted to pin that one on Gibbs.

Prior to last season, I can't remember the last time we had any hype. Hype generated from fan sites such as The Warpath doesn't count.

I can't in good conscience agree that Gibbs lacks a killer instict. You can't make an acusation like that without honestly believing that winning is not as important to Gibbs as it is to the opposing coach. The guy didn't come back so he could not do everything in his power to win ballgames. I think you are taking evidences, such as the Falcons game last year, and interpreting their meanings when it isn't necessary. Look, we had a crappy defense. We got stops on the first two drives in that game and consequently we got a 14-0 lead. But it's not really Gibbs' fault that Campbell couldn't hold up his end of the bargin to keep drives alive in that game and it CERTAINLY isn't Gibbs fault that the worse than replacement passer, Michael Vick, went up and down the field on us with ease. That's not lacking a killer instinct. That's the defense giving up an early lead because they suck.

Your other two reasons are administrative Gibbs reasons. And honestly, you really have to keep seperate Gibbs the talent evaluator and Gibbs the head coach. After all, Gibbs was essentially learning the nuiances of talent eval on the run. He is showing signs of improvement, but that doesn't make up for the critical errors he and his staff made. It wasn't to be unexpected. He's a football coach. He's going to be a fine general manager due to some lessons learned, but he wasn't his first 3 years here. No amount of administrative mistakes should affect the legacy of Gibbs the coach. Respect the individuality of these two seperate entities. Gibbs has proven himself successful at one, and proven himself inexperienced at the other.

I can fully understand your desire for consistent winning. That's just something that's very hard to do. A football game is only 60 mins long. Luck won't necessarily even out over that short time. This makes it hard for even the best coaches to put together a consistent winner. Too much can go wrong that is completely out of the coach's control. Especially in a year where Gibbs relinquished his playcalling duties, it seems really hard to pin the losing season on him as you are doing.

Maybe theres a chance Gibbs isn't using his players correctly. Tell us a few things that you would do differently if you were the coach of the Redskins.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Here’s a write up as to why I don’t trust Gibbs, in the current arangement to turn the skins back into a winner. First of all, let me say I think this is his last year regardless. If he does poorly I think he’s done in the NFL, and if he does well I think he’ll hand over the reigns and it will look as if he righted the franchise, only time would tell if that’s the case. Every year I hear how the Redskins will either a) Go to the playoffs; b) go far in the playoffs; c) Win the Superbowl. Every year I’m skeptical, every year, except this one I buy in. Last year I thought we’d get a wildcard spot in the playoffs and maybe win one game. I was just as far off as most other people, but I refuse to buy the hype anymore.

I think Joe Gibbs has a few major problems as a coach in this era. I feel he hasn’t yet adjusted, and at this point I’m not sure if he will. It doesn’t all have to do with coaching, but I will explain all of my points below.
1) Joe Gibbs lacks the killer instinct. He fails miserably in finishing teams. How many times have we had a lead, run it three times up the middle, punted, and lost the game? The answer is far too many. I’m not saying go balls to the wall in that situation. High percentage passes, mix up the runs, attempt to get the first down. If we don’t give them the ball back, they don’t have a chance. Often times by that point our defense is exhausted from being on the field the whole time.
2) Joe Gibbs in the front office. This doesn’t just go on Joe Gibbs, I don’t feel any coach should have these responsibilities. While some coaches pull it off (such as Andy Reid) the vast majority of coaches can’t. I simply think being a head coach is enough work without having to worry about overseeing scouting, player acquisition, etc. This isn’t to say the coaches shouldn’t be involved in some sense, but most of the work should go to a GM or whatever system the FO sets up.
3) Too willing to give away draft picks like candy. We’re constantly trading up and acting like draft picks are worth nothing. While I think you can often get a very solid veteran for a reasonable draft pick and often it’s a good deal, I’m much more concerned with the fact that we’re constantly trading up in the draft. For instance, do we really feel that trading up for Rocky was worth it? Unless we felt he was a real impact player, then we should have held fast. Even worse than that is how we seem to always give up more than we have to when it comes to trading.

As far as what I think of Gibbs proving something to me. That means consistency from year to year. I’d like to see us build on success from a previous year. We went from a solid regular season finish in 2005, but we came into 2006 flat and never got it together. I put this on Joe Gibbs. I find many of his decisions questionable both in games and when it comes to other facets of the game.

Yes, keep harping on my age. You can be 85 years old and still not know anything about football. I’ve never claimed myself an expert, and I often have strong opinions that people don’t agree with. However, I’m also right more often than I am wrong. I feel that the only thing I remember from Gibbs’ first stint is how much candy 200 bucks buys from winning the pool for vs the Bills is an asset. I’m not blinded by what he did in the past. I’m taking nothing away from what Gibbs did back in his hay day, but it’s a new era and you can’t take a man who has been out of the league for 11 years and act like his resume just continues without a hiccup.

Trust me, I hope more than anyone else that I’m wrong. But I don’t feel Gibbs relates to athletes anymore. He seems like the senile old grandfather when they go into the locker room and show footage. I’m worried he doesn’t connect with the players, and I feel he doesn’t use players correctly. If Gibbs has a great season next year, feel free to bring this thread back up and I’ll eat crow. However, I don’t expect that to be the case.

Had to back track after seeing the post slamming you by noviclown, but as usual your pretty much dead on, I wonder if noviclown is Joe Gibbs secret screen name?

[Daseal]

Name a coach that hasnt lost in the last 3 seasons, you cant can you?

Actually, I can name eight. Dungy, Belichick, Schottenheimer, Shanahan, Holmgren, Lewis, Cowher, and Del Rio (Bengals, Steelers, and the Jags all had at least 1 8-8 season, but that’s not losing). That’s a quarter of the league. Surprised?

Randy Moss has talent...what's your point? The point is, every player in this league apparently has the talent to play in the pros, but it comes down to the right coaches bringing them along the right way.

Uh, thanks? This is exactly what I'm saying. Why isn't Gibbs able to bring these guys around and develop the talent we have?

The truth is, Gibbs still has it and will prove it this year. If he doesn't make a believer out of you, then fine. But, the game of football, albeit a change in rules here and there, is still played the same way it was in his first tenure. Gibbs still has the tools, you just have to learn patience.

The game has changed significantly since Gibbs left and he's so much as admitted it. I think three full years is patient. How many coaches get three years to go about their business with a losing record not having to worry about thier job? Not many. Three years is the typical grace period for coaches now days. He's getting a fourth with open arms, but I feel if he doesn't do it, he's in deep trouble.

I know everyone here is biased, but I guarantee you a majority of the football community agrees with me more than you.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Actually, I can name eight. Dungy, Belichick, Schottenheimer, Shanahan, Holmgren, Lewis, Cowher, and Del Rio (Bengals, Steelers, and the Jags all had at least 1 8-8 season, but that’s not losing). That’s a quarter of the league. Surprised?

Every one of which has more talent than we do on their roster. And of course, the Bengals and Jaguars were only playoff teams once over that time. Seems like Gibbs II has done at least the job that Del Rio and Marvin Lewis have if not better.

Shanahan has a unique offensive system, very much like Gibbs, and comes to each game very prepared. But Shanahan's in game ineptitude has cost the Broncos a share of games that they should have won.

San Diego and Indianapolis have epicly GREAT players on their rosters. They have good coaches, but quite clearly, the players are what keeps the teams consistently successful.

Belicheck and Cowher are very solid coaches, but their organizations do a great job finding cheap talent which keeps them successful for a sustained period of time. I would throw Reid and the Eagles onto this list too, even though their 2005 was an injury riddled one.

It's no secret that the most successful coaches have the best players. Gibbs' roster hasn't been all that great since he returned. It could have been, but it wasn't.

The game has changed significantly since Gibbs left and he's so much as admitted it. I think three full years is patient. How many coaches get three years to go about their business with a losing record not having to worry about thier job? Not many. Three years is the typical grace period for coaches now days. He's getting a fourth with open arms, but I feel if he doesn't do it, he's in deep trouble.

I know everyone here is biased, but I guarantee you a majority of the football community agrees with me more than you.

Whenever a guy is away that long, there will be an adjustment period. I'm guessing by the point when Ramsey replaced Brunell in 2004, he was adjusted just fine. Gibbs has been holding up his end of the bargain for this whole time. Arguably, the head coach is responsible for some of the underachieving that has gone on here...but more accurately, the players are professionals. They have to be incharge of themselves. You can't blame Gibbs for not adequately babysitting these guys. If they aren't giving 100% every week, get new guys.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Every one of which has more talent than we do on their roster. And of course, the Bengals and Jaguars were only playoff teams once over that time. Seems like Gibbs II has done at least the job that Del Rio and Marvin Lewis have if not better.

Shanahan has a unique offensive system, very much like Gibbs, and comes to each game very prepared. But Shanahan's in game ineptitude has cost the Broncos a share of games that they should have won.

San Diego and Indianapolis have epicly GREAT players on their rosters. They have good coaches, but quite clearly, the players are what keeps the teams consistently successful.

Belicheck and Cowher are very solid coaches, but their organizations do a great job finding cheap talent which keeps them successful for a sustained period of time. I would throw Reid and the Eagles onto this list too, even though their 2005 was an injury riddled one.

It's no secret that the most successful coaches have the best players. Gibbs' roster hasn't been all that great since he returned. It could have been, but it wasn't.

Whenever a guy is away that long, there will be an adjustment period. I'm guessing by the point when Ramsey replaced Brunell in 2004, he was adjusted just fine. Gibbs has been holding up his end of the bargain for this whole time. Arguably, the head coach is responsible for some of the underachieving that has gone on here...but more accurately, the players are professionals. They have to be incharge of themselves. You can't blame Gibbs for not adequately babysitting these guys. If they aren't giving 100% every week, get new guys.

That's a very weak argument and really says Gibb's has not been able to find the talent, motivate the players, use the cap to find more low wage good players, hire good coaches etc (I hope your not an Atty.)... I thought that was his job as a coach? Oh' but its the other caoches that are doing all of this.
Don't get me wrong I'm glade Gibb's came back but his numbers are his numbers and right now they are below what they need to be. This will be the year for me and if Gibb's can produce a team that will bounce back from last year than I'll be happy.

[dmek25]

without getting as long winded as you two, let me say first, i think Gibbs has earned the semi- free pass he has around here. ill take some mediocrity for 3 super bowl victories, any day. secondly, can you guys name one coach you would rather have here, right now, instead of coach Gibbs? i cant think of one. there are 2 issues that i have with coach Gibbs part 2. first, this man was a master at adjustments. where the hell have they been? and secondly, stop delegating. more of a hall of fame coach, and less of the assistants = more winning. one of the best days for me being a redskins fan is when the skins announced Gibbs was coming back. its time for him to step up, or ride off into the sunshine

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by dmek25

without getting as long winded as you two, let me say first, i think Gibbs has earned the semi- free pass he has around here. ill take some mediocrity for 3 super bowl victories, any day. secondly, can you guys name one coach you would rather have here, right now, instead of coach Gibbs? i cant think of one. there are 2 issues that i have with coach Gibbs part 2. first, this man was a master at adjustments. where the hell have they been? and secondly, stop delegating. more of a hall of fame coach, and less of the assistants = more winning. one of the best days for me being a redskins fan is when the skins announced Gibbs was coming back. its time for him to step up, or ride off into the sunshine

I will agree w/ u here. No 1/2 time adjustments what so ever. First go arounde this guy was the master at it.

[squrrelco3]

Originally Posted by dmek25

without getting as long winded as you two, let me say first, i think Gibbs has earned the semi- free pass he has around here. ill take some mediocrity for 3 super bowl victories, any day. secondly, can you guys name one coach you would rather have here, right now, instead of coach Gibbs? i cant think of one. there are 2 issues that i have with coach Gibbs part 2. first, this man was a master at adjustments. where the hell have they been? and secondly, stop delegating. more of a hall of fame coach, and less of the assistants = more winning. one of the best days for me being a redskins fan is when the skins announced Gibbs was coming back. its time for him to step up, or ride off into the sunshine

The adjustments thing I totally agree with...now the delegating to assistants is some Gibbs did even back int he days of Gibbs 1.0. I remember watching the replay of the '87 Super Bowl and all they kept talking about is how many coaches Gibbs had on his staff and how much money they had spent on coaching. Now I will agree he's earned somewhat of a pass however even Gibbs himself said when he came back that those three ring don't mean a damn thing now.

[Daseal]

We're obviously not going to convince each other. I've put down what I feel about it and will leave it at that. We're going back and forth with the same thing. Only time will tell who's right when it comes down the line,

[Master4Caster]

Originally Posted by SonnySamFrank

What a jerk!

I think you are too harsh. This is a 17 paragraph story. Pasquarelli spends half of one paragraph saying what Gibbs has already said about himself.

Criticism, by itself, is not bashing.

[hagams]

Reguardless of the record, there isn't anyone in the world I would rather see showing this team. If anything, the impact on the players and fans he's had since returning. I felt so good about that first season he was back, just because he was there. It's good to look to the sidelines and see him kinda glaring into space. There comes a time though that you have to start wondering if there's someone better for the job, but I'm not there yet.


SEMPER JOE!!