Have we discussed???

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by airsoftking

We had too many quick 4th down situation last year, especially with mark brunell.

We had a lot more three and outs with Campbell. Like, near double.

[Daseal]

What I'm saying is this, Gtripp: Joe Gibbs is ultra conservative, and that doesn't fly anymore. Greg Williams has consistently proven himself as quite a great defensive coordinator. I will take his recent track record over anyone elses. I see this year as the exception, not the rule. Especially seeing as how he couldn't do what he likes to do thanks to early injuries to our secondary.

Winning games shouldn't be put squarely on our defenses shoulders every week. Sometimes we need to grow some balls, man up, and try to put more points up. Have you not seen in the 4th quarter up by a touchdown the skins touch the ball 2-3 times on offense and easily go 3 and out each time. I mark this up to overall coaching and game management. Sometimes you have to rely on your defense, but sometimes you need to put points up. In '05 I saw our defense ripped on this board for being forced, every week, to try to save the game for the Redskins.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Daseal

What I'm saying is this, Gtripp: Joe Gibbs is ultra conservative, and that doesn't fly anymore.

That logically is incorrect. Gibbs' offense was ran in his second year back (in 11 years I might add) when the Redskins went to the playoffs and advanced. Heck, the Redskins fired off 5 or 6 wins in a row because they went to the run game more. Looking back at it this year...you have Al Saunders calling his offense, and G. Williams' defense collapsing. That has nothing to do with Joe Gibbs' offensive philosophy. By looking at the facts, it isn't Joe Gibbs being ultra conservative, it is the whole picture with a new guy calling plays and the defense letting us down.

Originally Posted by Daseal

Greg Williams has consistently proven himself as quite a great defensive coordinator. I will take his recent track record over anyone elses. I see this year as the exception, not the rule. Especially seeing as how he couldn't do what he likes to do thanks to early injuries to our secondary.

The same could be said for Joe Gibbs. He has consistently proven himself as a Head Coach, something Gregg Williams has yet to do. If we use this past year as an exception, then why not apply the same for Joe Gibbs and this run? Gibbs had injuries as well on the offensive side of the ball? Heck, Joe Gibbs has already proven himself able to lead a consistently bad team to the playoffs in this day and age.

[Daseal]

That logically is incorrect. Gibbs' offense was ran in his second year back (in 11 years I might add) when the Redskins went to the playoffs and advanced. Heck, the Redskins fired off 5 or 6 wins in a row because they went to the run game more. Looking back at it this year...you have Al Saunders calling his offense, and G. Williams' defense collapsing. That has nothing to do with Joe Gibbs' offensive philosophy. By looking at the facts, it isn't Joe Gibbs being ultra conservative, it is the whole picture with a new guy calling plays and the defense letting us down.

Where did I say don't run? I think our line and team is built to pound the rock, and I love a solid running game. I don't think running up the middle three times is a good strategy, but we need to run. And right, it has nothing to do with his offensive philosophy, notice I said game management. Gibbs is the one telling these guys roughly how he wants the game to go. If you want to look back since GIbbs has been back it's been the same thing as last year.

I'm not blaming Saunders or Gibbs for the offense last year. It takes time to get a new philosophy in and implemented, especially with the type of turn over we have over the typical year. The defense this year was subpar, but since GWilliams has been here he's done nothing but put an amazing product on the field, even before he came here his defenses have often been top 10.

The same could be said for Joe Gibbs. He has consistently proven himself as a Head Coach, something Gregg Williams has yet to do. If we use this past year as an exception, then why not apply the same for Joe Gibbs and this run? Gibbs had injuries as well on the offensive side of the ball? Heck, Joe Gibbs has already proven himself able to lead a consistently bad team to the playoffs in this day and age.

As you said yourself, Gibbs was gone for 11 years. And Joe Gibbs HAD a pass for two years before I really started being critical. Yes, we all know what he did in the 80s, that's great, you know my feeling on that. As far as consistently proven himself? I haven't seen anything of that sort in his latest stint. You're still living in the glory days, look at Gibbs 2.0 for face value, he's not in the top half of NFL coaches right now. Are you saying that the offensive injuries were even close to the defensive ones? I can't see that at all! Greg Williams has one bad year in how many years in the league? Gibbs could win in the 80's, it's still yet to be seen in the 2000's.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Where did I say don't run? I think our line and team is built to pound the rock, and I love a solid running game. I don't think running up the middle three times is a good strategy, but we need to run. And right, it has nothing to do with his offensive philosophy, notice I said game management. Gibbs is the one telling these guys roughly how he wants the game to go. If you want to look back since GIbbs has been back it's been the same thing as last year.

Hhhhmmm. Something doesn't quite mesh. Didn't you say Joe Gibbs' problem was that he was ultra conservative and that being ultra conservative doesn't fly anymore? So, wouldn't that in fact be saying that his offensive philosophy cannot work? After all, Gibbs' philosophy is a ball controlled offense. Looking back on last year, the playcalling was all over the page. The offense didn't have an identity. Saunders couldn't decide if this offense was going to be a pass oriented offense or a run oriented. Gibbs let the reigns go last year. Anything we did wrong or right had to do with Saunders calling the plays, not Gibbs telling him which ones to call.

Originally Posted by Daseal

I'm not blaming Saunders or Gibbs for the offense last year. It takes time to get a new philosophy in and implemented, especially with the type of turn over we have over the typical year. The defense this year was subpar, but since GWilliams has been here he's done nothing but put an amazing product on the field, even before he came here his defenses have often been top 10.

I'm sorry, but exactly who are you blaming? You just said that running up the middle three times in a row isn't good strategy which I definitely agree, but then isn't that blaming the one calling the plays? So, who called the plays? Saunders.

Originally Posted by Daseal

As you said yourself, Gibbs was gone for 11 years. And Joe Gibbs HAD a pass for two years before I really started being critical. Yes, we all know what he did in the 80s, that's great, you know my feeling on that. As far as consistently proven himself? I haven't seen anything of that sort in his latest stint. You're still living in the glory days, look at Gibbs 2.0 for face value, he's not in the top half of NFL coaches right now. Are you saying that the offensive injuries were even close to the defensive ones? I can't see that at all! Greg Williams has one bad year in how many years in the league? Gibbs could win in the 80's, it's still yet to be seen in the 2000's.

Did he not in fact get the Redskins into the playoffs and advance into the playoffs in his second year back with the Redskins? How can you say he hasn't proven anything? Neither one of the last two coaches prior to Gibbs' return was able to do such. It has already been seen that Gibbs can win in this decade, because he went 10-6 in his second year. Daseal, there was way more wrong with this team than what appeared to us when we watched this team on Sundays. Even the fact that Gibbs has been able to squeeze one good season out of the three that he has been here so far shows that he still has it. I don't blame you for being critical and wanting to win now. Heck, we all want to win, but don't you want this team winning on a consistent basis? That takes time to develop.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by hagams

Last year, we lost too many games, and this is something we all know. Since I've joined this site (not that long ago) I have learned and heard just about every reason we didn't pull out more wins last year. One thing I haven't seen discussed is how we couldn't hold on to a lead in the second half, or score/hold the oppenents on key drives. Our discussions have been about free agents, trades, and the draft. I'm pretty concerned about this and I wish I had the figures to back up my thread, but I'm not any good at getting stats together.

Do you think we have addressed these problems? I don't think this is something we can fix just through the draft and free angency alone.

the real reason that we didnt win more games is because we didnt score more points than the opposition did in 11 out of 16 games

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

the real reason that we didnt win more games is because we didnt score more points than the opposition did in 11 out of 16 games

Exactly. Sometimes the simplest answer is the best answer

[GusFrerotte]

Joe Gibbs conservative? Do you not remember the Posse back in the 80's? The running game was the heart of the offense for sure, but our aerial attack was second to none when we had Monk, Clark, and Saunders. We even kicked Bronco ass with those guys and Elway and Co were supposed to be the best. Gibbs isn't conservative, just is too loyal for his own good with regards to keeping Mark as starting QB for too long last year. That is my only gripe against coach. His sticking with MB cost him 3 playoff years in a row possibly, in which his legacy would be even greater than what is was. IF he doesn't improve to at least 9-7 this season, his legacy will probably be tarnished for good. The 80's are fast becoming ancient history and you have an entire generation of younger fans that don't remember being to a Super Bowl, etc. Coach needs to get back to calling the plays and if JC sucks stick another guy in there pronto.

[Daseal]

Joe Gibbs conservative? Do you not remember the Posse back in the 80's? The running game was the heart of the offense for sure, but our aerial attack was second to none when we had Monk, Clark, and Saunders. We even kicked Bronco ass with those guys and Elway and Co were supposed to be the best. Gibbs isn't conservative, just is too loyal for his own good with regards to keeping Mark as starting QB for too long last year. That is my only gripe against coach. His sticking with MB cost him 3 playoff years in a row possibly, in which his legacy would be even greater than what is was. IF he doesn't improve to at least 9-7 this season, his legacy will probably be tarnished for good. The 80's are fast becoming ancient history and you have an entire generation of younger fans that don't remember being to a Super Bowl, etc. Coach needs to get back to calling the plays and if JC sucks stick another guy in there pronto.

For the 90th time, this isn't the 80s. He's conservative now, maybe not then, but he is now.

[Daseal]

I'm sorry, but exactly who are you blaming? You just said that running up the middle three times in a row isn't good strategy which I definitely agree, but then isn't that blaming the one calling the plays? So, who called the plays? Saunders.

Last year isn't the main gripe I have. I understand we had a new playcaller and it takes time to get that rolling. It's the other years he's been here. And while Saunders calls the plays, is not the head coach in charge of the tempo of the game he wants? Certain types of plays, etc. We did up the middle a lot less last year actually. I want to see the occasional high percentage type throws, the occassional deep pass, or in the very least throwing it to the chains on 3rd down!

I don't blame you for being critical and wanting to win now. Heck, we all want to win, but don't you want this team winning on a consistent basis? That takes time to develop.

Actually while I always want to "win" I don't want win now like Gibbs is doing. He is tossing draft picks all over and sending our cap into dire straights. Im curious how much longer we can go with this. I'm ready for a younger coach that could be here longterm, build through the draft, and build the team instead of trying to buy the championship.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Last year isn't the main gripe I have. I understand we had a new playcaller and it takes time to get that rolling. It's the other years he's been here. And while Saunders calls the plays, is not the head coach in charge of the tempo of the game he wants? Certain types of plays, etc. We did up the middle a lot less last year actually. I want to see the occasional high percentage type throws, the occassional deep pass, or in the very least throwing it to the chains on 3rd down!

I'm sure the Head Coach has the final say in what he expects, but if your team is built to be ball controlled, then it's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You have to play to your team's strengths. Our strength is a ball controlled offense. Hopefully if Campbell continues to improve, then the offense will have a better chance at stretching the field more, but I believe this team will continue to be a run first team regardless.

Originally Posted by Daseal

Actually while I always want to "win" I don't want win now like Gibbs is doing. He is tossing draft picks all over and sending our cap into dire straights. Im curious how much longer we can go with this. I'm ready for a younger coach that could be here longterm, build through the draft, and build the team instead of trying to buy the championship.

How is Gibbs sending our cap into dire straits? Daseal, Gibbs doesn't control the financial side of the team. That isn't his job. It isn't logical to blame Joe Gibbs for that. We are not doing anything of the sorts as to what we did in 2000. There are no Bruce Smiths, Jeff Georges, or Dion Sanders on this team. Step back and look at the acquisitions we have made this year and the overall roster. This team IS getting younger and appears to be getting quality players. We're not trying to go out and to pick up big name guys in the twilight of their careers.

Everybody looks like what the Dallas Cowboys did in the early 90's and suddenly that is supposed to be the formula for success. Well, guess what, that was over a decade ago itself. That was in the early stages of free agency and the salary cap....those aspects have changed significantly since that point. Don't get me wrong, I agree that we need guys who aren't all 35 and older, but with the exception of Brunell, this Redskins team IS a fairly young team. Just because the Dallas Cowboys had gotten guys like Smith, Irvin, and Akiman doesn't mean those types of guys are in every year's draft.

[Campbell17]

Originally Posted by hagams

Last year, we lost too many games, and this is something we all know. Since I've joined this site (not that long ago) I have learned and heard just about every reason we didn't pull out more wins last year. One thing I haven't seen discussed is how we couldn't hold on to a lead in the second half, or score/hold the oppenents on key drives. Our discussions have been about free agents, trades, and the draft. I'm pretty concerned about this and I wish I had the figures to back up my thread, but I'm not any good at getting stats together.

Do you think we have addressed these problems? I don't think this is something we can fix just through the draft and free angency alone.

Fixing our team is not oing to be enough. Going down the stretch, we blew a lot of really close games, and we continued to because we more-likely-than-not, lost them. The only two games we hung on in the clutch were HOME aginst our biggest rival, and vs Jacksonville in Week 4, with our only win, close v.s. Houston. We just assumed that we were going to lose. Team chemistry is increibly important, and we need to build confidence. We will be able to becaus of our early season schedule.

[Campbell17]

The one hing the skins have to stop doing in close games is giving up stupid penalties. They cost us tons. We were the NFL's most penalized team.

[KLHJ2]

I think its because teams made better half time adjustments than we did in the games that we dominated in the first half. I blame that on the coordinators. Or should I say Assistant Head Coaches Offense/Defense.

[GTripp0012]

Can we all agree on this point:

No matter what the playcall is, or how conservative it is, we should be able to execute it for a first down a reasonable amount of times...and we certainly didn't execute this year.