Gun Restrictions and Your Rights

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Accidental shootings are very rare and people have a greater chance of falling off a ladder and dying than by accidental shooting. Yes, it does happen.

Yes, but that's because more people climb on ladders than pick up loaded guns.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I don't think anyone doubts that there are some, or even many, situations in which a gun would be useful, but such situations are vastly outweighed by instances in which a kid is filled by a gun accidentally going off, a gun being used against the owner by a criminal, etc. I simply don't believe that pro-gun lobbyists can honestly argue that the proliferation of guns is a good thing for society.

I really believe the only legitimate argument supporting gun ownership is that it is a constitutional and long-held right. I would still debate the point, but at least it's a valid argument.

I think your argument here is faulty.

First off the instances of children dying or being injured by a gun accidently are drastically smaller than instnces of self-defense using a gun. Just arguing numbers there. If you are talking about the weighting of each data set then that's a whole different argument.

As for criminals using an owner's gun against them I think that is even lower than instances of children getting accidently shot.

To me it comes down to one question:

How many criminals are going to be denied access to guns by outlawing guns?

If we can figure out a way to keep guns out of ALL criminals hands then I am all for outlawing guns but I have never heard of any ideas on how that would ever happen. I think criminals are going to have guns no matter what. Maybe less criminals will have guns but how much will the ones who do have them feel emboldened by the notion that whatever house they are breaking into or whichever woman they are going to attack and rape is not going to have a gun? Guns offer protection against these criminals and taking away that available protection isn't just a bad idea I think it is morally corrupt. The problem isn't guns. It is stupid/evil people getting them. How do we stop those people is what we need to figure out. A kneejerk reaction of outlawing guns for everyone is simply creating different problems. Problems that could be even worse.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Tell that to my buddy who has a carry permit and he, his wife and daughter where attacked. They may have just wanted his wallet and her purse but we don't know what they may have done. When they saw his gun they ran away as fast as they could go.

This is one of the few times when a gun was helpful, but it's anecdotal evidence. I need some concrete numbers to weigh the costs and benefits. The benefits of owning guns are few, but the costs are many. Consider:

- In 2003, 11,290 Americans were killed by Assault by Firearm. If you add up all other forms of murder, you don't even get half that many. The number of murders would drop if guns were outlawed. Some would still occur

- In 2003, 730 people were killed by accidental discharge of firearms. Gun accidents that could have been drastically reduced if guns weren't easily available.

- In 2003, there were 16,907 suicides by firearm. I know a good portion of these people would still kill themselves if the didn't have access to a gun. But blowing your brains out is the easiest way to do it. A number would be saved.

- There were 232 other deaths caused by firearm where the police weren't able to figure out what the intent was; ie was it murder, suicide, or accident.

This data comes from the NSC's website: Odds of Dying - NSC

Firstdown, that CCW data you posted is from 1992, before the Brady Bill even went into effect. It's so old, it's completely irrelevant now. Not to mention a quite biased source of information. If you can provide some relevant, unbiased statistics on guns as a crime deterrent, I'm all ears. But I haven't seen any, and I've looked.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

This is one of the few times when a gun was helpful, but it's anecdotal evidence. I need some concrete numbers to weigh the costs and benefits. The benefits of owning guns are few, but the costs are many. Consider:

- In 2003, 11,290 Americans were killed by Assault by Firearm. If you add up all other forms of murder, you don't even get half that many. The number of murders would drop if guns were outlawed. Some would still occur

- In 2003, 730 people were killed by accidental discharge of firearms. Gun accidents that could have been drastically reduced if guns weren't easily available.

- In 2003, there were 16,907 suicides by firearm. I know a good portion of these people would still kill themselves if the didn't have access to a gun. But blowing your brains out is the easiest way to do it. A number would be saved.

- There were 232 other deaths caused by firearm where the police weren't able to figure out what the intent was; ie was it murder, suicide, or accident.

This data comes from the NSC's website: Odds of Dying - NSC

Firstdown, that CCW data you posted is from 1992, before the Brady Bill even went into effect. It's so old, it's completely irrelevant now. Not to mention a quite biased source of information. If you can provide some relevant, unbiased statistics on guns as a crime deterrent, I'm all ears. But I haven't seen any, and I've looked.

There are numerous self-defense with guns surveys available on the internet and all report that instances of self-defsne via gun per year number at least 700,000. Most of the surveys put the numbers in the millions.

One statistic from a 97 study(i'll need to find a link for it) reports that every 12 seconds an American defends him or herself with a gun.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

There are numerous self-defense with guns surveys available on the internet and all report that instances of self-defsne via gun per year number at least 700,000. Most of the surveys put the numbers in the millions.

One statistic from a 97 study(i'll need to find a link for it) reports that every 12 seconds an American defends him or herself with a gun.

I'll need to see it, I'm keeping my mind open, but I need to see numbers.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.

Owning a gun makes no sense in your world. Blanket statements such as this.............make no sense.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.

Owning a gun in todays world make total sense.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Owning a gun in todays world make total sense.

Only because others own guns who shouldn't due to lax gun laws.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Only because others own guns who shouldn't due to lax gun laws.

I'm sorry if a person wants a gun and they do not obey our laws to start with they can find a way to get one. Now if we make them illegal for everyone then only the people who break the laws will have a weapon. If I'm correct I believe that over 2 million times a year a law abiding citizen protects themself with a gun. These are the only stats I could find but they do support what I have heard.
Ohio CCW Law - Statistic & Facts About Carrying Concealed Weapons

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I'm sorry if a person wants a gun and they do not obey our laws to start with they can find a way to get one. Now if we make them illegal for everyone then only the people who break the laws will have a weapon. If I'm correct I believe that over 2 million times a year a law abiding citizen protects themself with a gun. These are the only stats I could find but they do support what I have heard.
Ohio CCW Law - Statistic & Facts About Carrying Concealed Weapons

This is the argument that most anti-gun lobbyists seem to forget. Cocaine, Pot, Heroine, etc. are all illegal, yet 30% of the country uses or has used them at some point in their life. Making guns illegal will do next to nothing to prevent nut jobs from getting guns. All it will do is keep law abiding citizens from owning them. Case in point; Washington DC has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet it's still in the top ten in gun related crime. What makes anyone think that this kid wouldn't have been able to get his hands on a gun, even if guns were completely outlawed?

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.

we hardly agree on anything. with that out of the way, i agree with this statement 100%.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm 100% in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. Owning a gun makes no sense in today's world.

Well, once again Schneed, we completely disagree. Though I have to give you credit -- at least you admit that the 2nd amendment must be repealled in order to achieve the goal of the total criminalization of owning firearms.

A philosophical question for you though: Do you believe you have the inherent individual right to defend yourself?

[GhettoDogAllStars]

I have a pistol, and I support gun ownership in America. I realize that many people die from guns, and we could reduce the number of deaths from guns if they were outlawed. However, I do not support a reduction in liberties for the sake of security. I'd rather be free and insecure, than to be secure but not free. Freedom has costs.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I have a pistol, and I support gun ownership in America. I realize that many people die from guns, and we could reduce the number of deaths from guns if they were outlawed. However, I do not support a reduction in liberties for the sake of security. I'd rather be free and insecure, than to be secure but not free. Freedom has costs.

I definately think that's a valid argument. What I find interesting, however, is that the people who advance such an argument support things like the Patriot Act and similar legislation and the anti-gun lobby generally opposes the Patriot Act etc. Seems like both "sides" hold contradictory beliefs.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I definately think that's a valid argument. What I find interesting, however, is that the people who advance such an argument support things like the Patriot Act and similar legislation and the anti-gun lobby generally opposes the Patriot Act etc. Seems like both "sides" hold contradictory beliefs.

Yep, you're right. From my experience, most gun supporters are also supporters of freedom-reducing terrorism laws, like the Patriot Act. Usually, they are the same people who advocate profiling, and the "kill 'em all" attitude. It is ironic.