Disgusted with Bonds?

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Hog1

The legal Maxim "Innocent until proven guilty" pertains to criminal proceedings. It has no place here.
barry and his friends are guilty. Black ball their asses out and save baseball, AND an honest man's legacy. Let the sharks in the business figure out how to accomplish it.
Hmmmm, I wonder what Tanya Harding and her friends are doing?

I would agree with you if "barry and his friends" weren't half of the league's players. Kicking a few cheating people out of any sport helps save the integrity but when the problem is far beyond a few then you are talking about totally destroying the game entirely. I am not excusing anyone's actions. I am simply trying to get you to realize the reality of the situation. There is no way they can simply kick one guy out without confronting the real notion that the problem was considerably widespread and would have to do something similar to all cheaters. Maybe that is the way to go but they need to be ready for some long and lean years in baseball if they start really cleaning the game up that way. I would think they would rather simply let the testing wash those guys out and save the game that way. That solution presents issues like Bonds breaking the record but over all it is better than basically flushing decades records and players stats down the drain and saying to everyone "Our game was a farce for years".

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I would agree with you if "barry and his friends" weren't half of the league's players. Kicking a few cheating people out of any sport helps save the integrity but when the problem is far beyond a few then you are talking about totally destroying the game entirely. I am not excusing anyone's actions. I am simply trying to get you to realize the reality of the situation. There is no way they can simply kick one guy out without confronting the real notion that the problem was considerably widespread and would have to do something similar to all cheaters. Maybe that is the way to go but they need to be ready for some long and lean years in baseball if they start really cleaning the game up that way. I would think they would rather simply let the testing wash those guys out and save the game that way. That solution presents issues like Bonds breaking the record but over all it is better than basically flushing decades records and players stats down the drain and saying to everyone "Our game was a farce for years".

Agreed 1000%.

Hog1, you are WAY oversimplifying. I mean if you don't care at all about being fair and evenhanded, then yeah I guess you can strip Barry Bonds of all his records and achievements. Of course then you'd be telling baseball players that it's OK if you use steroids to:

- Falsely boost your production to make a lot more money
- Help your team win by using banned substances
- Rack up stats that could get you into the HOF
- And this is all OK as long as you don't break Hank Aaron's record

It makes no sense. You take one guy down, you have to take them all down.

Now if we get PROOF that Bonds cheated, rather than just supposition, then yeah, Baseball has every right to take Bonds out of the record books. But right now the best we have is supposition (albeit strong supposition, but it's supposition nonetheless) by some reporters that Barry took steroids from his trainer. If you're going to go after someone just because you suspect them, don't you have to go after a lot of other guys that are suspect? Starts to sound a lot like the Salem Witch Hunt, going after people because you are suspicious.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Agreed 1000%.

Hog1, you are WAY oversimplifying. I mean if you don't care at all about being fair and evenhanded, then yeah I guess you can strip Barry Bonds of all his records and achievements. Of course then you'd be telling baseball players that it's OK if you use steroids to:

- Falsely boost your production to make a lot more money
- Help your team win by using banned substances
- Rack up stats that could get you into the HOF
- And this is all OK as long as you don't break Hank Aaron's record

It makes no sense. You take one guy down, you have to take them all down.

Now if we get PROOF that Bonds cheated, rather than just supposition, then yeah, Baseball has every right to take Bonds out of the record books. But right now the best we have is supposition (albeit strong supposition, but it's supposition nonetheless) by some reporters that Barry took steroids from his trainer. If you're going to go after someone just because you suspect them, don't you have to go after a lot of other guys that are suspect? Starts to sound a lot like the Salem Witch Hunt, going after people because you are suspicious.

If he's guilty, Bonds has to go down. If he's guilty-no record. If Mcguire, and the rest get caught in the investigation, so be it.
Does anybody think MLB has any integrity left? I would gain renewed respect them for them if they pursued it. I don't think I would be in the minority.
If they have to have their own inquisition, let's get started.

By the way:

Originally Posted by firstdown
If no one can prove Bonds took roids then there is nothing that can be done. Its that simple

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I would agree with you if "barry and his friends" weren't half of the league's players. Kicking a few cheating people out of any sport helps save the integrity but when the problem is far beyond a few then you are talking about totally destroying the game entirely. I am not excusing anyone's actions. I am simply trying to get you to realize the reality of the situation. There is no way they can simply kick one guy out without confronting the real notion that the problem was considerably widespread and would have to do something similar to all cheaters. Maybe that is the way to go but they need to be ready for some long and lean years in baseball if they start really cleaning the game up that way. I would think they would rather simply let the testing wash those guys out and save the game that way. That solution presents issues like Bonds breaking the record but over all it is better than basically flushing decades records and players stats down the drain and saying to everyone "Our game was a farce for years".

I do think baseball has a better grip on this, and you can tell that they do when players go from being an all star to being a mediocre at best player because the testing is more difficult. I also beleive that Clemens waits to play because he can take roids, get all the strength and then cruise to the end of the season without a worry of testing positive, all the while collecting his 20+ million paycheck. Now, I am not saying it's still not happening. It is...but the ones that are are doing it with designer steroids that they think won't be caught. When Palmiero went down, everyone got scared. Only the ones that NEED it, and NEED it to acheive something still do.

I'm not really saying it's the integrity of the game...it is, but not really...it's the fact that here is a known roid head going after a great man, and a great player that busted his ass to own this record. It's not right that a cheater will pass him.
The integrity of the game has been hurt for a long time, they are on the way back, but they are still WAY FAR OFF. Remember the league allowing interleague play to get fans back? That was a black eye to the integrity of the game too.
Obviously, nothing is going to be done about this, but I hope he gets the little * next to his record.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I do think baseball has a better grip on this, and you can tell that they do when players go from being an all star to being a mediocre at best player because the testing is more difficult. I also beleive that Clemens waits to play because he can take roids, get all the strength and then cruise to the end of the season without a worry of testing positive, all the while collecting his 20+ million paycheck. Now, I am not saying it's still not happening. It is...but the ones that are are doing it with designer steroids that they think won't be caught. When Palmiero went down, everyone got scared. Only the ones that NEED it, and NEED it to acheive something still do.

I'm not really saying it's the integrity of the game...it is, but not really...it's the fact that here is a known roid head going after a great man, and a great player that busted his ass to own this record. It's not right that a cheater will pass him.
The integrity of the game has been hurt for a long time, they are on the way back, but they are still WAY FAR OFF. Remember the league allowing interleague play to get fans back? That was a black eye to the integrity of the game too.
Obviously, nothing is going to be done about this, but I hope he gets the little * next to his record.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say here. I don't want Bonds to break the record anymore than you do. I would love for baseball to be able to making sweeping eliminations of records and cheaters but honestly it would kill the game and ultimately I think they can clean it up and get the game back on track but with a few a sacrifices. Crappy sacrifices for sure but ones that will give them a chance to get the game back.

The bigger problem is how did the game get like this? Where the only options going forward both suck? I go back to the way the game is operated at aleague management level and wonder when or if they will ever figuire out it is the root problem behind their struggles.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say here. I don't want Bonds to break the record anymore than you do. I would love for baseball to be able to making sweeping eliminations of records and cheaters but honestly it would kill the game and ultimately I think they can clean it up and get the game back on track but with a few a sacrifices. Crappy sacrifices for sure but ones that will give them a chance to get the game back.

The bigger problem is how did the game get like this? Where the only options going forward both suck? I go back to the way the game is operated at aleague management level and wonder when or if they will ever figuire out it is the root problem behind their struggles.

I think the only way to stop this is not to erase records..but to ban Bonds from baseball barring an investigation...the investigation could take as long as 3 years...oops. That won't take away his numbers, but that will stop him from beating a great man.