SGG's What's Your Issue Poll

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Something interesting on abortion, at least for me. Abortion is not an issue I care enough about to cast my vote on it (other issues are just more important, IMO). But after my wife had our first young'n back in October, my stance on abortion has changed drastically.

I used to be staunchly pro-choice, feeling that the government shouldn't be involved in telling a woman how to handle her body. But now that I've witnessed the birth of a human being, I can't get past the fact that abortion basically denies that child the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It just feels different now that I'm a parent, it's difficult to explain. I wonder if anybody else's opinions have changed on the subject because they've become a parent?

I'm a parent as well, but my views have changed in the other direction. I lean more pro-choice now.

I guess my position is this; If the government wants to legislate abortion then they should also legislate sex before marriage. I know that's a pretty extreme stance, but that's how I see it. You can't outlaw one immoral decision yet allow another. How many pre-marital abortions are performed? I don't know. But I would venture to say that the vast majority of them are done out of wedlock.

Why is this an issue with me? Because I tend to find that much of the protesting and demonstrating in front of abortion clinics attempt to invoke the Ten Commandments when making their case against abortion. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that sex before marriage should be outlawed. To that end, I think those who stand on "scripture" are duty bound to invoke all of the Commandments, not just the one(s) that appease their particular base.

But if people are in engaging in pre-marital sex then that's their business. And if they want to have an abortion then, well, that's their business too.

[saden1]

The right always says "..they hate our freedoms, that's why they want to kill us" yet when it comes to issues like abortion or issues they don't agree with freedom is metaphiscal nonsense.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

The right always says "..they hate our freedoms, that's why they want to kill us" yet when it comes to issues like abortion or issues they don't agree with freedom is metaphiscal nonsense.

Agreed. But, I do actually think that Bin Laden-types, as opposed to your run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents, hate America for its "freedoms." Bin Laden and others of his ilk do despise our promiscuity, indulgence in drink and drugs, freedom of religion, separation of church and state, etc.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

The right always says "..they hate our freedoms, that's why they want to kill us" yet when it comes to issues like abortion or issues they don't agree with freedom is metaphiscal nonsense.

Yeah but the main reason the right is so appalled by abortion is because it's giving people the freedom to choose to deny someone a life.

It's a little different than freedom of speech, freedom to practice religion, etc.

It's not the fact that abortion is a freedom that bothers the right, it's the fact that they feel it's killing someone. And I tend to agree. Wouldn't it be some bullshit if your mom decided she would rather just not have you, and you were never here?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah but the main reason the right is so appalled by abortion is because it's giving people the freedom to choose to deny someone a life.

It's a little different than freedom of speech, freedom to practice religion, etc.

It's not the fact that abortion is a freedom that bothers the right, it's the fact that they feel it's killing someone. And I tend to agree. Wouldn't it be some bullshit if your mom decided she would rather just not have you, and you were never here?

The right also defines a fertilized egg as a child (the moment of conception). The real issue here is that the right is interjecting their religious beliefs to limit my freedom.

As for my mother not aborting me, well, she had a miscarriage prior to having. I could have easily been that embryo but I wasn't. What matters is that I am here, and those that aren't here aren't. I mean, who left the right in change of making sure every embryo makes it through 9 months of gestation?

p.s. I'm actually pretty conservative when it comes to abortion. Liberty and freedom, however, come before my own personal views on the issue.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by saden1

The right also defines a fertilized egg as a child (the moment of conception). The real issue here is that the right is interjecting their religious beliefs to limit my freedom.

As for my mother not aborting me, well, she had a miscarriage prior to having. I could have easily been that embryo but I wasn't. What matters is that I am here, and those that aren't here aren't. I mean, who left the right in change of making sure every embryo makes it through 9 months of gestation?

p.s. I'm actually pretty conservative when it comes to abortion. Liberty and freedom, however, come before my own personal views on the issue.

First, there certainly is a religious aspect, no doubt. And the right hides behind the Bible all the time, but it's more than that. It's moral, not just religious.

All humans began as fertilized eggs. The moral outrage does not stem from the fact that you're killing something (however you define that something, some would define that something as a fertilized egg as a child, others wouldn't). The moral outrage stems from the fact that you're never even giving this living thing a chance to know love, happiness, compassion, and freedom. Abortion robs "fertilized eggs" of the chance to know life. This living organism inside the womb would be born, and in all likelihood would grow up happy, were it not for abortion. Just think of what that person could become... a firefighter, a nurse, a teacher, the next President of the USA, a Redskins fan...

How can robbing them of that opportunity sit well with you? Religion enters the equation, but it goes well beyond that.

As for your mother's miscarriage, that sucks man. Ask her how she felt when that happened to her. Chances are she was very saddened, and experienced a sense of loss. Why? Because she was robbed of the opportunity to get to know THAT child, and that child never got the chance to know the love of it's mother. After a miscarriage, parents don't just shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll just make another one." It's sad because of the opportunities lost for the life that could have been.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

First, there certainly is a religious aspect, no doubt. And the right hides behind the Bible all the time, but it's more than that. It's moral, not just religious.

All humans began as fertilized eggs. The moral outrage does not stem from the fact that you're killing something (however you define that something, some would define that something as a fertilized egg as a child, others wouldn't). The moral outrage stems from the fact that you're never even giving this living thing a chance to know love, happiness, compassion, and freedom. Abortion robs "fertilized eggs" of the chance to know life. This living organism inside the womb would be born, and in all likelihood would grow up happy, were it not for abortion. Just think of what that person could become... a firefighter, a nurse, a teacher, the next President of the USA, a Redskins fan...

How can robbing them of that opportunity sit well with you? Religion enters the equation, but it goes well beyond that.

As for your mother's miscarriage, that sucks man. Ask her how she felt when that happened to her. Chances are she was very saddened, and experienced a sense of loss. Why? Because she was robbed of the opportunity to get to know THAT child, and that child never got the chance to know the love of it's mother. After a miscarriage, parents don't just shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll just make another one." It's sad because of the opportunities lost for the life that could have been.

I'm not robbing anybody of anything. It's the parent who is making the decision to have an abortion that bares the responsibility. It sounds corny but it's their body, their embryo, all theirs until the embryo is actually a child (formed). Ideally you would want them to have the child, love it and care for it but that's not how the real works works. You make it sound like abortion is an easy decision that people make on a whim. It's a tough decision and when someone makes that decision to have an abortion they really do have a reason they find valid to have an abortion. Banning abortion is definitely not the answer though. I mean, if abortion is baned, it will still continue underground like the good old days.

My mother was upset about the miscarriage because she really wanted to have a child. On the flip side, I know people who have had a miscarriage that were glad about it because they were contemplating a abortion.

On a side note, the Darwinian in me thinks abortion is an effective social force, one which helps control population growth. All other animals on the planet have predators except humans. We are at the top of the food chain and if we don't control our population we're pretty much screwed down the line. Take China for example, that's one massive population. If abortion was banned there and couples were not limited to 1 child there wouldn't be enough resource to feed, cloths, and support the population. Something that should be avoided at all cost IMO.

This reminds me of how a lot people complain about illegal immigration. Americans wants a piece of the pie and they would rather not share it with the Mexicans. No one wants to fight 1000 people over a measly job. No one wants to drive their kid 10 miles away because their local school is crowded. The whole issue of immigration is about over population and the distribution of resources amongst many people.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

... until the embryo is actually a child (formed).

When is this exactly?