Cowher Talking to Skins about Job in '08?

[MTK]

What did he do for us in his 7 years here to make you want to continue rooting for him??

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the guy. I think he's a great offensive coordinator. I just think he's garbage as a head coach.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What did he do for us in his 7 years here to make you want to continue rooting for him??

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the guy. I think he's a great offensive coordinator. I just think he's garbage as a head coach.

It's less about rooting for him than it is about not finding joy in his failure. I like watching some people lose, but he's not one of them. He seems like a decent fellow. I thought the way he was fired here was disgraceful. They didn't need to do that. I was a little embarrassd to be a Skins fan when I went to Dallas for the game the next weekend. Just a little.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What did he do for us in his 7 years here to make you want to continue rooting for him??

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the guy. I think he's a great offensive coordinator. I just think he's garbage as a head coach.

This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)

I always thought he had a good knack for playcalling. I woud say he was better than anything i saw from Al Saunders last year.

[Beemnseven]

Troy Aikman, whom I despised as a player, but greatly respect now, has nothing but praise for Norv Turner. He credits Norv for shaping him as the player he turned out to be, and thinks very highly of him as a coach/coordinator.

Some may not agree with Aikman on this, but having a Hall of Famer like Aikman on his side can't hurt Norv's case.

The history books aren't through with Norv Turner, let's just say that.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I always thought he had a good knack for playcalling. I woud say he was better than anything i saw from Al Saunders last year.

Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?

No, the point that is made is that he was deficient in the areas of team management and motivation. The Westbrooke/Davis fight, a lack of discipline, too nice to the guys. I think you can have a great game plan and not have your team ready to play at the same time.

I will say that I think Gibbs was/(is?) too cautious as a play caller at times, but he makes up for it with meticulous preparation. His practices are like games.

At any rate, it will be interesting to see how many points San Diego scores this season. I think a lot.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

No, the point that is made is that he was deficient in the areas of team management and motivation. The Westbrooke/Davis fight, a lack of discipline, too nice to the guys. I think you can have a great game plan and not have your team ready to play at the same time.

I will say that I think Gibbs was/(is?) too cautious as a play caller at times, but he makes up for it with meticulous preparation. His practices are like games.

At any rate, it will be interesting to see how many points San Diego scores this season. I think a lot.

I think lacking in the areas of team management and motivation, assuming that good coaching requires those things (which isnt a given IMO), would also hurt his value as an offensive coordinator. I mean we are quick to throw blame on him for the lacking disipline of those teams, but what about the blame of the other coaches, or more accurately, the blame of the undisciplined players themselves? Leadership can come from anywhere, and while the HC is generally synonmous with it, hes no more responsible for it than the Running back or the Offensive Coordinator.

I personally don't think he was a great coordinator either because he was deficent in those aforementioned areas. I think he's given a lot of credit for coaching untapped talent when in reality he was just coaching "about to be tapped" talent (Gore, Dallas three headed monster, etc.). Funny thing is, as a head coach, I think the reverse perception has hurt him. People perceive that teams like the 2000 Redskins and 2005 were talented, but in reality those were some pretty awful football teams.

Coaching doesn't have a huge effect on the outcome of the game, IMO, but Turner was every bit as bad as a Coodinator as he was as a HC. The question is was that all that bad? And I really don't have the answer. But I can assure you that it doesnt make all that much of a difference.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Coaching doesn't have a huge effect on the outcome of the game, IMO, but Turner was every bit as bad as a Coodinator as he was as a HC. The question is was that all that bad? And I really don't have the answer. But I can assure you that it doesnt make all that much of a difference.

Tripp, I know your shtick is that you generally disagree with conventional wisdom, but I bet 90+% of the league agrees that Norv Turner is an above average to very good offensive coordinator. He's managed some very prolific offenses over the course of his career, and he never seems short of career opportunities.

The reason he wasn't very successful as a head coach is because a head coach does at least twice the work of an offensive coordinator in conventional coaching scenarios. He wasn't able to handle the other aspects of managing a football team, and his leadership skills were sub par at best.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

No, the point that is made is that he was deficient in the areas of team management and motivation. The Westbrooke/Davis fight, a lack of discipline, too nice to the guys. I think you can have a great game plan and not have your team ready to play at the same time.

I agree with you but that's why I continue to think San Diego will be a good situation for him. There are enough giants in that locker room who are solid team guys that they will police themselves. Turner will just have to focus on exploiting the considerable weapons that they have and staying out of the GM's way.

As I've said before, Norv has been given a final shot that most people would kill for. He has all the tools. His team is somehow slipping under the radar after a 14-2 season because of some big free agent signings around the league.

Now if the team internally disolves or underachieves we will be able to say definitively that he is an awful coach.

But I agree with Gtripp on one thing - too much is often made of coaching, and this cult of genius surrounding succesful coaches can be absurd. The bottom line is do you have players, and the Chargers do in spades.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Maybe he does, but my point would be that he didn't lose that knack as a HC, did he?

Norv is one of the best OC's in the NFL. No question about that. He knows NFL offense. But he IS NOT a leader of men.

In order for him to be a good HC he is going to need a veteran team with self starters. He is in the perfect situation now in SD. But he could not coach a team like Tenn and get them to 8-8 like Jeff Fischer did.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Norv is one of the best OC's in the NFL. No question about that. He knows NFL offense. But he IS NOT a leader of men.

In order for him to be a good HC he is going to need a veteran team with self starters. He is in the perfect situation now in SD. But he could not coach a team like Tenn and get them to 8-8 like Jeff Fischer did.

I very clearly AM questioning it.

If his team got 3 defensive TDs against a team like Jacksonville, I'm sure he could have won 8 games with Tennessee. That was a relatively fortunate 8 wins.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I very clearly AM questioning it.

So in your mind he must be an all around crappy coach then?

He must be doing something right to keep finding work in the NFL.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This position has perplexed me for years. I don't understand why the "Norv is garbage crowd" thinks he was/is a good coodinator. The qualities that make a successful head coach (especially a HC who calls plays) are pretty much identical to the qualities of a playcalling coodinator, correct?

So does Norv have these qualities or not? I doubt he could have them only conditionally. He's either an underrated coach, or an overrated coodinator.

(I tend to feel hes the latter)

I'm not sure what's so confusing. As a coordinator he has a pretty good track record, but as a head coach his record speaks for itself. There are plenty of coaches in the league that just aren't head coach material, but are brilliant coordinators. I think Norv fits that mold perfectly.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm not sure what's so confusing. As a coordinator he has a pretty good track record, but as a head coach his record speaks for itself. There are plenty of coaches in the league that just aren't head coach material, but are brilliant coordinators. I think Norv fits that mold perfectly.

Agreed. It's kind of like Monte Kiffin in Tampa. The guy has been a top D coordinator for years, and he knows that's his niche. Norv has been a great offensive play caller and developer of QBs, but he's a poor disciplinarian and no good with the defensive side of the ball. I think Gregg Williams may be the same kind of coach as well. His track record as THE guy is poor, but (aside from '06) his defenses have always been very solid. Other guys who come to mind are Ray Rhodes, Dave Campo, Marty Mornenwheg, Dom Capers... all good coordinators but questionable head coaches.