Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I think you missed my point here. Point is, you are wanting to FORCE doctors that worked damn hard to get where they are to give you free health care. That's not right.
What do you do Matty? Imagine someone saying that you now are owned by the government and you need to do what they say.
Doctors don't go through many years of intense training and hundreds of thousands of dollars in education to be owned by the government.



It's gone away cause there are SOOOOO many people willing to sit around and be lazy and take your money and my money. You are offered insurance at most places of employment...so why is it this is such a huge issue?

Doctors would still be paid under a universal system, just maybe not as much as they are now. I guess some might have to give up their summer homes or their 2nd or 3rd beemer, but I'm sure they could adjust to such peasant living.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Doctors would still be paid under a universal system, just maybe not as much as they are now. I guess some might have to give up their summer homes or their 2nd or 3rd beemer, but I'm sure they could adjust to such peasant living.

See, this is where I have a problem with this idea. Cause people assume cause Doctors (or any wealthy person) have money they should be ok to all of sudden be parted from their money. It's not right. They worked hard...harder than ANY of us here on this site. I busted my ass for an MBA in Finance, and I didn't even do a fraction of the work that Doctors do to get where they are. They deserve those 2nd or 3rd beamers, and the summer homes. They worked for it. I will never agree to taking money from hard working people. This is why I have fundamental issues with democrats.

So how about this...train the guys that are flipping your burgers right now to become doctors, then it will be OK to pay them subpar doctor salaries, and then all the people that "needed" health care that didn't have it can go to the ex burger flippers. That way you're not hurting current doctors, and your giving the little man a chance at making it big.
Just out of curiousity, how many of you want the ex burger flipper performing surgery on you?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

See, this is where I have a problem with this idea. Cause people assume cause Doctors (or any wealthy person) have money they should be ok to all of sudden be parted from their money. It's not right. They worked hard...harder than ANY of us here on this site. I busted my ass for an MBA in Finance, and I didn't even do a fraction of the work that Doctors do to get where they are. They deserve those 2nd or 3rd beamers, and the summer homes. They worked for it. I will never agree to taking money from hard working people. This is why I have fundamental issues with democrats.

So how about this...train the guys that are flipping your burgers right now to become doctors, then it will be OK to pay them subpar doctor salaries, and then all the people that "needed" health care that didn't have it can go to the ex burger flippers. That way you're not hurting current doctors, and your giving the little man a chance at making it big.
Just out of curiousity, how many of you want the ex burger flipper performing surgery on you?

So while someone "deserves" a summer home and 2-3 luxury cars, that means on the flipside somebody else "deserves" to be homeless and without health care?

Personally I don't think things need to be so lopsided. I would think one home and one luxury car would be enough. If these people need such excessive luxuries, what is their true motivation for even being a doctor??

What would a subpar doctor salary even be?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

So while someone "deserves" a summer home and 2-3 luxury cars, that means on the flipside somebody else "deserves" to be homeless and without health care?

100% YES. In my scenario, that doctor worked his ass off, and being a doctor is freakin tough! Yes, he does deserve all the good things he gets.
On the flip side, the dumbass that isn't willing to work deserves to be homeless and without health care cause that's the lifestyle HE CHOSE!!! It is amazing to me that people want to give honest hardworking mans money away and give it to people that don't give a shit. That astounds me.

Personally I don't think things need to be so lopsided. I would think one home and one luxury car would be enough.

It's 100% none of your business what they do with their HARD EARNED money.
This statement is not always true, but is more true more often than not:
Those that have money have worked harder and smarter than those that have not.

If these people need such excessive luxuries, what is their true motivation for even being a doctor??

Who says they NEED it? They deserve it for hard work.
How about this, I think in order for your ideas to work, you need to work 10 more hours a week for free, and you have to donate every hour of vacation time to those "less fortunate" (as you put it). If you did that, there would be no need for the extra healthcare needed to cover everyone.

ps- not all doctors are abnormally wealthy...fyi.

What would a subpar doctor salary even be?

Well, in my scenario, I wouldn't go to the ex-burger flipper...but let's call it 40-50k.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

100% YES. In my scenario, that doctor worked his ass off, and being a doctor is freakin tough! Yes, he does deserve all the good things he gets.
On the flip side, the dumbass that isn't willing to work deserves to be homeless and without health care cause that's the lifestyle HE CHOSE!!! It is amazing to me that people want to give honest hardworking mans money away and give it to people that don't give a shit. That astounds me.



It's 100% none of your business what they do with their HARD EARNED money.
This statement is not always true, but is more true more often than not:
Those that have money have worked harder and smarter than those that have not.



Who says they NEED it? They deserve it for hard work.
How about this, I think in order for your ideas to work, you need to work 10 more hours a week for free, and you have to donate every hour of vacation time to those "less fortunate" (as you put it). If you did that, there would be no need for the extra healthcare needed to cover everyone.

ps- not all doctors are abnormally wealthy...fyi.



Well, in my scenario, I wouldn't go to the ex-burger flipper...but let's call it 40-50k.

I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.

[dblanch66]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.

Well, everyone knows that the folks in New Orleans should've jumped in their SUV's and driven to their summer homes (as suggested by Barbara Bush).
Poor people ALL deserve what they get, right JSarno and SBF? Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus...PUSHOVERS! HA!
BLEEDING HEARTS...HA!
"SCREW THE POOR!! THEY DESERVE THEIR MISFORTUNE!"
Now..pass me that Beluga, James.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by dblanch66

Well, everyone knows that the folks in New Orleans should've jumped in their SUV's and driven to their summer homes (as suggested by Barbara Bush).
Poor people ALL deserve what they get, right JSarno and SBF? Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus...PUSHOVERS! HA!
BLEEDING HEARTS...HA!
"SCREW THE POOR!! THEY DESERVE THEIR MISFORTUNE!"
Now..pass me that Beluga, James.

LOL

classic

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by dblanch66

Well, everyone knows that the folks in New Orleans should've jumped in their SUV's and driven to their summer homes (as suggested by Barbara Bush).
Poor people ALL deserve what they get, right JSarno and SBF? Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Jesus...PUSHOVERS! HA!
BLEEDING HEARTS...HA!
"SCREW THE POOR!! THEY DESERVE THEIR MISFORTUNE!"
Now..pass me that Beluga, James.

See, you guys all let life come to you don't you? To say something like this is crazy. There are poor people that try, but the majority will get ahead eventually. You just don't want to come to the conclusion that you or certain people CHOSE their lifestyle. Don't tell me people can't change their lives for the better...they can! They just don't cause of the bleeding hearst here always willing to give a hand out.
So here's a suggestion...instead of bitching about some of us that actually care to keep our hard earned money, why don't you all get together and donate to all the lazy people...oops, I mean less fortunate.

PS- Mother teresa, ghandi and Jesus never preyed on the hard workers to live.

pps- YES, those idiot in New Orleans KNEW the Hurricane was coming...had SEVERAL DAYS of warning but they CHOSE to stay. Are you getting the common point here? They CHOSE to stay...CHOSE it. They had every opportunity to leave, but CHOSE to stay. Because you were sarcastic about their "summer homes" etc...they were all offered shelter and food at the dome as well as other places.
You know...if you're in a flood and a guy with a boat comes by to help you and you say no...then a helicopter comes to help you and you don't get on it...you deserve to drown. (that's hypothetical by the way) Don't ignore the people willing to help...they did.
When I was in Hurricane Charlie, I took my life into my own hands...I also helped others by allowing them into my buddy's apartment cause they would likely be flooded. During a time like that, the human spirit comes out and will help out...those people had ample time...even people that came around with buses to help and they turned their noses at them. Stupidity.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.

Well, I just feel that everything in your life, you attracted somehow. Whether be from laziness, or no sense of urgency, or lack of self responsibility, which would describe 99% of all people on assistance.
I would be more than happy to help someone that had a completely random crappy issue happen to them. I would and have helped people that help themselves. I refuse to help people that have a hand out and are unwilling to help themselves and live like there are no repercussions.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.

You might be surprised to find out how many homeless people are there by personal choice or because of personal choices. I would think that drugs and alcohol are responsible for about 75% of homeless cases. The remainder being largely mentally ill (you can't force people to stay in mental hospitals since the 1970's, which is oddly when homelessness emerged). There are very few people in this country who are sane, willing to work and who don't have a place to live. It's very rare. Think about it. You would have to lose your job, have no family, have no friends, have no church, and on and on and on.

You can feel pity for someone and understand that it's their own fault at the same time. The two are not really related.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

You might be surprised to find out how many homeless people are there by personal choice or because of personal choices. I would think that drugs and alcohol are responsible for about 75% of homeless cases. The remainder being largely mentally ill (you can't force people to stay in mental hospitals since the 1970's, which is oddly when homelessness emerged). There are very few people in this country who are sane, willing to work and who don't have a place to live. It's very rare. Think about it. You would have to lose your job, have no family, have no friends, have no church, and on and on and on.

You can feel pity for someone and understand that it's their own fault at the same time. The two are not really related.

Regardless of how or why it happens, do they still not deserve a helping hand? I guess the prevailing opinion would be they don't, considering how we treat our sick, elderly, mentally ill, and homeless in this country.

[724Skinsfan]

Is there a post on this thread that summarizes "Sicko"? What reforms can be made without giving it over to government control?

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

So while someone "deserves" a summer home and 2-3 luxury cars, that means on the flipside somebody else "deserves" to be homeless and without health care?

Personally I don't think things need to be so lopsided. I would think one home and one luxury car would be enough. If these people need such excessive luxuries, what is their true motivation for even being a doctor??

Not sure what the exact numbers are, but according to a few med students I know, there's a big misconception that all doctors are living it up. Neurosurgeons, spinal surgeons, anesthesiologists and a few other specific doctors are compensated well. Most other doctors aren't getting paid their true worth.

Take into account the debt that every doctor incurs- they've got 200K in extra four years of school. After that, they're probably raking in about 35-40K in residencies (where they're staying up every third or fourth night). Being a doctor certainly calls for sacrifice and they should be rewarded way more than many other professions.

Average salaries

I know a doctor who practiced general surgery for 200K a year... told me with all the stress, work hours, etc- it wasn't nearly enough to compensate what they go through. Add malpractice insurance costs, it's no wonder doctors skip to the private sector as soon as possible.

I think there would be a significant drop-off in talent, should the private sector be taken away. Eliminating private hospitals doesn't solve the inefficiency of the general ones. I haven't seen Moore's film yet, but the UK's system isn't perfect. In fact, when I visited London pubs, health care problems were always a topic of conversation. In terms of Cuba, their system is simplified: health care is directed for a healthy work force. There's little to no care for the elderly, extreme illness, mental retardation, etc. Are American families ready to "let go" of their loved ones earlier? Even if we're covered, are we ready to wait an extra six months for a hip replacement? Are we ready to scrap the notion of mental health care? ADD/ADHD are myths in Cuba.

This country has the best medical education institutions, the best doctors and the highest technology (including medical and diagnostic equipment). Why else do so many wealthy people in universal systems rush here for care? (the wait is too long elsewhere). The problem isn't the care itself... it's access. And even then, illegal immigrants receive emergency treatment here. Every person (regardless of class status) can get treated... the discrepancy lies with how long it takes for a poor person to receive treatment or the degree a non-insured is monetarily wiped out after an emergency.

Oh yeah... and I do plan on watching "Sicko" ASAP. Moore's techniques grate my skull, but I think I'm intelligent enough to use his film as part of a larger critique on the system. He's at least done a great service sparking debate. Honestly, there's probably very few people (in both parties) that are probably so misanthropic that they'd really want the poor to die off without proper health care. In a utopian society, I'd want everyone to get treated for unprepared illness and disease without having to live the rest of their lives in debt. We've just got to remember that nothing is ever free... the other countries (EU nations, Canada, etc) don't face the same elements the US has (sheer size, immigration), so they can probably afford to have universal plans that work. It's great to say that the US just needs to scrap the current system, but the pragmatists still have to make it work.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by jsarno

See, this is where I have a problem with this idea. Cause people assume cause Doctors (or any wealthy person) have money they should be ok to all of sudden be parted from their money. It's not right. They worked hard...harder than ANY of us here on this site. I busted my ass for an MBA in Finance, and I didn't even do a fraction of the work that Doctors do to get where they are. They deserve those 2nd or 3rd beamers, and the summer homes. They worked for it. I will never agree to taking money from hard working people. This is why I have fundamental issues with democrats.

So how about this...train the guys that are flipping your burgers right now to become doctors, then it will be OK to pay them subpar doctor salaries, and then all the people that "needed" health care that didn't have it can go to the ex burger flippers. That way you're not hurting current doctors, and your giving the little man a chance at making it big.
Just out of curiousity, how many of you want the ex burger flipper performing surgery on you?

It probablly wouldn't be that big of a difference. People treat doctors like gods in this society. They're just people. How many of you know someone with a bad back that has said, "Doctor doesn't know what it is"? They are helpless against the most common of illnesses. It would be a big mistake to pretend that doctors are not a part of the problem. No offense to you SmootSmack, I'm sure your parents are those rare exceptions.

And to answer the question, no surgery for me period. I play the ball as it lies.

[dblanch66]

So let me get this straight: Some of you are saying that the American Health Care system is working well and doesn't need to be changed and some of you are saying that is blows.
Moore doesn't attack any political party in this film..by the way...he disects the "system" and concludes that it is not working for the MAJORITY of the country.
I guess it just depends on who you talk to, doesn't it?
Some of you on here are getting mighty "defensive", though.. Hmmm.