Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

Well stated.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.

To that I don't have an answer; And yes, I've seen them with their hand out on the side of the road.

But my guess is, we tend to scrutinize their actions a little more, rightfully or wrongfully I don't know, because they are indeed homeless and we want to know "why and how".

[724Skinsfan]

I see plenty of homeless people with the signs on the side of the road but, really, that's a bare fraction of the entire homeless population and some of those lazy assess aren't even homeless. Using the "roadside guys" as general example of homeless people is Michael Moore-ish (misleading). I volunteer on occasion at a soup kitchen. Seeing a mother and father with 2 kids in tow looking like at any moment they could just burst into tears will alter your way of thinking. Some people go through a run of bad circumstances that takes the will to fight right out of you. Try doing anything when you truly feel it won't make a bit of difference because so far nothing has. I challenge anyone to go homeless for 3 months and then try to get back on your feet with no help from mommy and daddy or whoever you might have as a benefactor.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.

I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.

That is one of the problems is that Americans do not save and spend more than they should. If I lost my job today I could go maybe 8 to 10 years without a pay check. Now, it would drain my savings, stocks, retirement, etc but I could do it if I had to. The rule of thumb is 6 months and I say most people could not live 6 months without their income.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.

True dat. I would suggest all of us sitting here reading this thread have received benefits from persons and events beyond are control. Likely as not, some have been harmed in the same fashion. It is for this reason I constantly repeat to myself when I see those less fortunate than myself "There but for the grace of God go I."

Well said 12th.