The legacy of 'W'?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

It is true that one vote can win an election, in theory. However, in practice I do not believe that every vote is counted. Usually the margins are wide enough for a solid statistical conclusion to be made about the outcome -- at which time, the loser usually concedes.

Many votes are not accepted for a variety of reasons, and this is usually not a problem. In the case of 2000, with such a close election, these votes could have changed the outcome. So, you have unambiguous votes for one candidate, that were not accepted because they were cast in the incorrect precinct. Or, you have votes from overseas which arrived late. Should the outcome of the Presidential election come down to a technicality? I think this is why they went to court.

There are always votes that get tossed out because they are improperly cast. For Gore to say, "those were votes for me, and I'm the winner" is unreasonable. It may be that his voters were less competent and more likely to have cast an overvote or an undervote but there is no way to know that. The best indication of what Gore was up to is the fact that he tried to exclude those absentee votes from mostly military people. At that point it should have been obvious that he didn't really believe he had won, but was rather trying to steal the thing.

I think what confused some people was the fact that the exit polling incorrectly predicted Gore to be the winner. That caused TV to give him the state (at about 8:45 PM EST, before all the polls in the state were closed, amazingly) and when they realized their mistake and changed their prediction it seemed as though there were some shenanigans when it was really just TV and the people they hire to do those exit polls making a mistake. Exit polls have become worthless as have polls generally, IMO, because conservatives will often tell a pollster to go eff himself. With caller ID, I think the polls that we see touted on TV are extremely suspect. Nobody with a life is going to talk to them.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

There are always votes that get tossed out because they are improperly cast. For Gore to say, "those were votes for me, and I'm the winner" is unreasonable. It may be that his voters were less competent and more likely to have cast an overvote or an undervote but there is no way to know that. The best indication of what Gore was up to is the fact that he tried to exclude those absentee votes from mostly military people. At that point it should have been obvious that he didn't really believe he had won, but was rather trying to steal the thing.

I think what confused some people was the fact that the exit polling incorrectly predicted Gore to be the winner. That caused TV to give him the state (at about 8:45 PM EST, before all the polls in the state were closed, amazingly) and when they realized their mistake and changed their prediction it seemed as though there were some shenanigans when it was really just TV and the people they hire to do those exit polls making a mistake. Exit polls have become worthless as have polls generally, IMO, because conservatives will often tell a pollster to go eff himself. With caller ID, I think the polls that we see touted on TV are extremely suspect. Nobody with a life is going to talk to them.

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

I've read a great deal on the election. You are quite right that the Gore camp wanted recounts in specified districts. Unfortunately, your knowledge ends there. As I've said, a recount of only those districts later found Bush the winner of Florida. However, it is totally true and indisputable that a later recount of the whole state showed that Gore had more votes cast for him in Florida than Bush did, which vindicated the exit polls.

Let me be clear.

The Florida (whole state) recount did not and should not have made Gore the winner. He did not ask for a whole state recount; therefore, it was without value as a determinant of the winner.

We do not have a quarrel in regard to logic here. Bush was the legal winner by rule. At the same time, Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush did and the exit polls were vindicated. The problem is that you have no knowledge of the statewide recount. I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

Other matters. Presidents whom I consider great lawbreakers and liars include FDR (civil liberties), Kennedy (imperialist, irresponsible), Johnson (pointless war and lying), Jefferson (imperialism, lying,), Nixon (corruption, mental illness). I have distaste for Jackson (cruelty), Wilson (racism), and Hoover (stupidity), as well as a dislike for others.

Generally speaking, I don't like presidents. I wouldn't go across the street to see one, even though I'm an avid politico. I don't even like Clinton. His pardoning his criminal friends ended whatever respect I had for him.

But this guy, Bush, is far worse than any of the above. He has all the bad traits of the others combined, all. He's as dumb as Hoover and cruel as Jackson, as racist as Wilson and as imperialistic as Jefferson, and so on. Plus, he developed a policy of torture, secret prisons, spied on Americans on a massive scale, has tried to destroy the balance of power, etc., etc.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Sixty minutes reported on what you never heard of, as well as virtually every talk show and newspaper in the country. Blacks from the House of Delegates went to the Senate with the material. All that was needed was for one Senator to back the protest for there to be a major investigation of the already proven disenfranchisement. Gore asked all the Senators in the Senate not to support the House protest. He was apparently in a patriotic mood and decided not to vote for the Congressional investigation. Gore voting "no" was shown on nation television, over and over. No disenfranchisements resulting from computer cliches were protested or alledged.
I realize you believe what you keep saying, but you are factually incorrect again and again. People cannot develope worthwhile opinions without correct data. The prevailing fault of the Bush supporters in this thread is that they are reasoning from incorrect data or attitudes that derive from ignorance of data. Virtually everything jsarno say is wrong, not because of his logic, which is fine, but rather the nonsensical myth and pseudo knowledge he reasons from.
Jeb Bush himself was suspected of being behind employing the Florida Computer firm that used the Texas felon list to knock identically named blacks from the the Florida voting list. There is no doubt that the fraud occurred, only doubt about the identities of the people who sat it up. The computer firm that perpetuated the fraud was paid by the state of Florida with taxpayer money.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

.

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me.

You're not the only one.
While I have been on the other side of your wrath I have always respected you and most people here with your willingness to have a constructive argument. I will never in a million years agree with anything the left says, but I can certainly respect it, and think about what you've said.
Fact is, 99.999999% of us will never change our minds here, but all of us can open our ears and listen without being a jackass.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

I don't blame you.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't blame you.

You don't blame him for what, precisely? For not knowing there was a statewide recount in Florida that found Bush got more votes than Bush in Florida or for being angry that I have now shown I was right about it and have put him down as arrogantly as he put me down in denying it.

Or do you not blame him for doubting my credentials, which he apparently does without benefit of research?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

The butterfly ballot was designed by a Democratic election chairperson. Tough luck for Gore but there is no way of knowing who people meant to vote for, so no claims can be made as to how many votes Gore lost.

I find it improbable that there are 80,000 registered voters in Florida who had the same name as Texas felons and even more improbable that all those voters were black. Perhaps you could document.

I have never seen any recount that showed Gore to be the winner, though many have tried. Again, you might link to something. If what you say is true, then certainly some netroot blogger would be all over it.

I can't make heads ot tails of the section I highlighted. The reason Gore didn't ask for a statewide recount was because he wanted to do it in counties controlled by Democrats and where he was more likely to gain votes, Dade, Broward, etc. He eventually did call for a statewide recount after it became obvious that a selective recount strategy was making him look foolish.

Of course, if you could point to a reputable website that documents a rcount that shows Gore to be the winner then you might actually have a case. I've never seen one and you are the first person that I have heard claim to have knowledge of one. Let's see it.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

Well if Gore wins his own damn state of Tennessee then he gets enough electoral votes and Florida isn't even an issue. Where's the outcry over that?

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well if Gore wins his own damn state of Tennessee then he gets enough electoral votes and Florida isn't even an issue. Where's the outcry over that?

That has nothing to do with anything.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

That has nothing to do with anything.

Of course it does. It's like spending all day complaining about Alstott's elbow not crossing the line but then ignoring the fact you let a QB making just his 5th NFL start rack up over 30 points on your defense. (Granted the comparison isn't exactly perfect because there's no question Alstott's elbow didn't cross the goal line)

But the point is why doesn't anybody ever point the finger at Gore for not getting things done elsewhere in the campaign? Why does it have to be some big conspiracy?