The legacy of 'W'?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i cant believe the the far right isn't screaming about Bush's manipulation of the Constitution, and how they are stripping Americans of their rights. the patriot act was good in thought, but bad in the way it is being executed.

Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Due to the fact that there is MASSIVE bounty on his head and we have had an all out man hunt for him, AND we haven't seen him on the tube, I am assuming he's dead. He's not the type to stay silent this long, and it's not like anyone is going to bring it up that he's dead. At this point he would have said something...Bush killed him. Make that #11.

I tend to agree with you here.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Sorry I got sidetracked by that little distraction.

Honestly I don't think he's done anything very well. I think he's been a complete disaster between 9/11, the war, the economy ( gas prices through the roof), and Katrina, just to name the major issues.

This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

PS- 9/11 everyone thought he handled very well, the war was a decision that Dems decided to go to, the economy is in GREAT shape (yes gas prices suck but not really his fault) and Katrina was the fault of thoughless morons that couldn't lift a finger to get themselves out of the way. I think he has given too much to rescue the idiots that didn't want to leave. All those morons on their roof bitching about being rescued should have been left. No one, and I mean no one can convince me that they didn't have time. I was sitting here watching it on tv, and as soon as it passed Florida the projected path was right into New Orleans. Even if you waited just to be sure, 2 days before hand they KNEW it was coming. If 48 hours isn't enough for you to realize that you live 10+ feet BELOW sea level and need to evacuate, then you're a dee, dee, dee and I'm not concerned about your safety. I'm not going to be concerned about you if you choose not to be concerned about youself.
Why would Bush send people in early when it was dangerous? Why put others in danger for the stupidities of others? And what the "armed bandits" making life difficult...shooting helpers? Bush did the right thing by waiting, and has done too much to date. I know that is not the politically correct thing to say, and it's not the dems view, but I am not going to apologize for it. Where was all that help when Charlie hit Punta Gorda / Fort Myers? Where was all that help when Andrew hit? The problem there is the people in New Orleans have a poor me attitude and since they are "poor" they feel they should be heard and lay there until someone helps. The people in Florida are deemed as "having money" so they take care of themselves. But fact is, Punta Gorda was full of trailer parks too. Just goes to show you that Florida is full of republicans (Lee county is 80% republicans) and New Orleans is full of Democrats. DO you think it is a coincidence? I don't. Republicans are taught to fend for themselves while Dems have been taught if they can't take care of themselves (or don't want to) then someone will do it for them. Of course that doesn't apply to EVERY person, but it applies as an in general statement.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I really think that Bush will be considered correct in his ideals, but incorrect in his methods.

Simple but it makes a lot of sense

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

I'm not bashing at all, I'm honestly looking to see what you guys have to say. I do focus on the negatives because there are so prevalant, I'll admit that. I'm not denying that he has probably done some good things, I just think the bad far outweigh the good to such a degree that it pretty much washes out what little good things he has done.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm not bashing at all, I'm honestly looking to see what you guys have to say. I do focus on the negatives because there are so prevalant, I'll admit that. I'm not denying that he has probably done some good things, I just think the bad far outweigh the good to such a degree that it pretty much washes out what little good things he has done.

But you did a good thing by asking me to think of a negative, cause he has done negative things...we all agree of that, even the biggest Bush lovers. So if I can do that, then the lefties here should be able to come up with one good thing Bush has done.
Beleive me, if Bush was 100% negative, there is no way in hell that he'd have ANY supporters, in Washington or out. You need to keep that in mind. Even if you hate the guy, he's done some good.

I know you can come up with at least 1 good thing matty. That's all I ask.

[dblanch66]

...uh, no...I WAS bashing, though. :smashfrea

[Daseal]

Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that SBF always talks about how much liberals / ACLU folks whine. Yet I see SBF whine about everything. Someone voices their opinion (a la my thoughts on Jerry Fawell) he cries that the post should be removed. Then when we have a good discussion which doesn't lean towards Bush (as a majority of the country doesn't) he gets upset and adds another controversial post. Take some of your own advice SBF, if you don't like the threads don't try to keep others from having a civil discussion.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Plus, and I admit this is a personal gripe of mine, I can't stand how the guy can't even speak correctly, and he comes off so damn smug I just want to strangle him. And as far as charisma and that "it factor" when it comes to leadership, the guy is so completely lacking it's downright embarrassing.

It sounds like you want someone who can play the role of President. We had him and all the Democrats said he was an idiot as well. It seems there is no pleasing you.

And "it factor"? Have you been reading the magazines at the Supermarket checkout or something?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by jsarno

This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

PS- 9/11 everyone thought he handled very well, the war was a decision that Dems decided to go to, the economy is in GREAT shape (yes gas prices suck but not really his fault) and Katrina was the fault of thoughless morons that couldn't lift a finger to get themselves out of the way. I think he has given too much to rescue the idiots that didn't want to leave. All those morons on their roof bitching about being rescued should have been left. No one, and I mean no one can convince me that they didn't have time. I was sitting here watching it on tv, and as soon as it passed Florida the projected path was right into New Orleans. Even if you waited just to be sure, 2 days before hand they KNEW it was coming. If 48 hours isn't enough for you to realize that you live 10+ feet BELOW sea level and need to evacuate, then you're a dee, dee, dee and I'm not concerned about your safety. I'm not going to be concerned about you if you choose not to be concerned about youself.
Why would Bush send people in early when it was dangerous? Why put others in danger for the stupidities of others? And what the "armed bandits" making life difficult...shooting helpers? Bush did the right thing by waiting, and has done too much to date. I know that is not the politically correct thing to say, and it's not the dems view, but I am not going to apologize for it. Where was all that help when Charlie hit Punta Gorda / Fort Myers? Where was all that help when Andrew hit? The problem there is the people in New Orleans have a poor me attitude and since they are "poor" they feel they should be heard and lay there until someone helps. The people in Florida are deemed as "having money" so they take care of themselves. But fact is, Punta Gorda was full of trailer parks too. Just goes to show you that Florida is full of republicans (Lee county is 80% republicans) and New Orleans is full of Democrats. DO you think it is a coincidence? I don't. Republicans are taught to fend for themselves while Dems have been taught if they can't take care of themselves (or don't want to) then someone will do it for them. Of course that doesn't apply to EVERY person, but it applies as an in general statement.

Why do you constantly say these people didn't want to leave New Orleans, and furthermore insist that they're stupid? I'm of the opinion, it was that same indifferent attitude that caused the entire response or lack thereof to be handled so poorly. Exactly what were they supposed to do, gas up the SUV, load it up with Avian, and check into the nearest motel? No, it wasn't that simple. We failed, plain and simple. And I've got news for you, that's not Left wing rhetoric attacking Bush - that's reality.

You defend Bush and his handling of Katrina, yet as we approach the two year anniversary of Katrina, many of the wards are still desolate, many of the residents are still displaced and New Orleans, by and large, remains a shell of its former self. You say that Bush should not put people in harms way, yet he didn't drag his feet awarding no-bid contracts to a handful of contractors, one of which is Halliburton; It's indefensible.

And what is this Republicans are taught this and Dems are taught that? Are you serious? I thought this was the United States of America. When I pleage alligence to the flag (before they took it out of school, that is) it was to the United States of America; Not to the GOP or to the Democrats. What, in the blue states they teach from different texbooks than the ones in the red states? In the blue states they have different family values than they do in the red states? We've been so conditioned to separate ourselves in red states and blue states that when someone says I'm a Republican or a Democrat we assume certain things about their political views, social values, and , perhaps, their work ethic. For instance, we assume Republicans are more conservative in their religous views than Democrats, yet it was Jimmy Carter who was the first to introduce the language of evangelical Christianity into modern national politics, but the Republicans were better positioned to mobilize the vote.

My point is, these generalizations (like your reference about Lee county v. New Orleans), if we're not careful, could border along the lines of racial attitudes and tendencies and further divide us. Don't you see this is the very mindset that is driving a wedge between us?

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I'm going to take your word for that.

I'm honestly looking for some debate here as to what his legacy will be, and what has he actually done a good job with? I'm sure there's gotta be something.

How about these:
1- he has helped to lower interest rates to the best in history.
2- He has helped the economy to one of the most successful in history.
3- He has had VERY good unemployment rates all the while lowering taxes for everyone including the poor.
4- He has hit his objectives and stuck to his word, something we commonly criticize presidents for. (read my lips, no new taxes comes to mind)
5- His unwaivering support for the protection of this country.
(Apparently he is a genius too cause he started this war all by himself, and he has fought this war all by himself. But that is sarcasm, not an actual good job)
6- He prevented Nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
7- Getting Lybia to give up its WMD programs and renounce terrorism.
8- Getting North Korea to shut down it's nuclear reactor.
9- Decapitating Al Quaeda's top leadership and preventing another massive attack on US soil.
10- Boosting Aid to Africa by three times the current aid...and vowed to double it again by 2010.

I'll start with those.[/quote]

What dimension are you living in?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

All good points 12th man. But, I tend to give Bush a pass for Katrina if for no other reason than it is impossible to take a totally destroyed city and expect to have the recovery go smoothly.

And, Crazyhorse, I still don't understand how anyone can be honest with themselves and think Bush is a Godsend or pure evil. If you think he's a Godsend you probably should stop listening to Savage Nation, watching Fox News, and hanging out at Sunday School. If you think he's pure evil (which, apparently, you do), you should probably stop listening to Air America, watching Bill Maher, and hanging out with fellow liberal arts professors.

I think it's pretty amazing that conservatives adore a guy who clearly doesn't believe in fiscal responsibility (see our ridiculous budget), small government (see the Patriot Act), or a "conservative" foreign policy (see Iraq). I think it's equally amazing that liberals literally hate the guy for detaining people at Gitmo when Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and FDR imprisoned thousands of totally innocent civilians in prison camps, abusing the judicial system when FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court to get his unconstitutional legislation passed, and for keeping us involved in a civil war when those same people want us to get involved in Darfur and backed the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo.

There, I've managed to annoy both conservatives and liberals.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.

Try reading something or watching a news show.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Because only if you're guilty of something should you worry about it.
What the far left needs to realize that in order to be very protected there has to be some "rights" that need to be bent. It's give and take. No one is infridging on my constitutional rights, and I like it that way.

The founding fathers believed that laws should protect all of us from unwarranted government intrusion. To believe otherwise is very "un-conservative."

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

All good points 12th man. But, I tend to give Bush a pass for Katrina if for no other reason than it is impossible to take a totally destroyed city and expect to have the recovery go smoothly.

And, Crazyhorse, I still don't understand how anyone can be honest with themselves and think Bush is a Godsend or pure evil. If you think he's a Godsend you probably should stop listening to Savage Nation, watching Fox News, and hanging out at Sunday School. If you think he's pure evil (which, apparently, you do), you should probably stop listening to Air America, watching Bill Maher, and hanging out with fellow liberal arts professors.

I think it's pretty amazing that conservatives adore a guy who clearly doesn't believe in fiscal responsibility (see our ridiculous budget), small government (see the Patriot Act), or a "conservative" foreign policy (see Iraq). I think it's equally amazing that liberals literally hate the guy for detaining people at Gitmo when Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and FDR imprisoned thousands of totally innocent civilians in prison camps, abusing the judicial system when FDR tried to pack the Supreme Court to get his unconstitutional legislation passed, and for keeping us involved in a civil war when those same people want us to get involved in Darfur and backed the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo.

There, I've managed to annoy both conservatives and liberals.

It's not so much that I'm blaming him, but I don't see that same motivation, the same difience, if you will, in getting involved in New Orleans that I see with Iraq. I fully understand that the reality of war and the reality of re-building a city are two different issues, but I don't see the press conferences; I don't see or him publicly speak about progress being made there; I don't hear testimonies about people returning to a ward that has been rebuilt; I don't see him talk about new initiatives to get people mobilized and back home. You see what I'm saying? I really think his hands were tied on the levies. They didn't all of a sudden decide to erode and break under Bush, Jr., but it's coming up on two years now, and I'm starting to scratch my head as to where we are.