The legacy of 'W'?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

All fair points 12th Man. I can't really argue with your last post.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

There are always votes that get tossed out because they are improperly cast. For Gore to say, "those were votes for me, and I'm the winner" is unreasonable. It may be that his voters were less competent and more likely to have cast an overvote or an undervote but there is no way to know that. The best indication of what Gore was up to is the fact that he tried to exclude those absentee votes from mostly military people. At that point it should have been obvious that he didn't really believe he had won, but was rather trying to steal the thing.

I think what confused some people was the fact that the exit polling incorrectly predicted Gore to be the winner. That caused TV to give him the state (at about 8:45 PM EST, before all the polls in the state were closed, amazingly) and when they realized their mistake and changed their prediction it seemed as though there were some shenanigans when it was really just TV and the people they hire to do those exit polls making a mistake. Exit polls have become worthless as have polls generally, IMO, because conservatives will often tell a pollster to go eff himself. With caller ID, I think the polls that we see touted on TV are extremely suspect. Nobody with a life is going to talk to them.

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I tend to agree with you here.

Total nonsense.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

This is why I thought this would be a bush bashing thread. If you really think he has done nothing right, you're not looking, or prefer just to focus on the negative. I have mentioned several things that he has done well, you could have regurgitated one of them.

PS- 9/11 everyone thought he handled very well, the war was a decision that Dems decided to go to, the economy is in GREAT shape (yes gas prices suck but not really his fault) and Katrina was the fault of thoughless morons that couldn't lift a finger to get themselves out of the way. I think he has given too much to rescue the idiots that didn't want to leave. All those morons on their roof bitching about being rescued should have been left. No one, and I mean no one can convince me that they didn't have time. I was sitting here watching it on tv, and as soon as it passed Florida the projected path was right into New Orleans. Even if you waited just to be sure, 2 days before hand they KNEW it was coming. If 48 hours isn't enough for you to realize that you live 10+ feet BELOW sea level and need to evacuate, then you're a dee, dee, dee and I'm not concerned about your safety. I'm not going to be concerned about you if you choose not to be concerned about youself.
Why would Bush send people in early when it was dangerous? Why put others in danger for the stupidities of others? And what the "armed bandits" making life difficult...shooting helpers? Bush did the right thing by waiting, and has done too much to date. I know that is not the politically correct thing to say, and it's not the dems view, but I am not going to apologize for it. Where was all that help when Charlie hit Punta Gorda / Fort Myers? Where was all that help when Andrew hit? The problem there is the people in New Orleans have a poor me attitude and since they are "poor" they feel they should be heard and lay there until someone helps. The people in Florida are deemed as "having money" so they take care of themselves. But fact is, Punta Gorda was full of trailer parks too. Just goes to show you that Florida is full of republicans (Lee county is 80% republicans) and New Orleans is full of Democrats. DO you think it is a coincidence? I don't. Republicans are taught to fend for themselves while Dems have been taught if they can't take care of themselves (or don't want to) then someone will do it for them. Of course that doesn't apply to EVERY person, but it applies as an in general statement.

Nobody was shooting helpers or raping anyone. All of that was disproved after the crisis. Nor were there "armed bandits." Do you ever read the news? By the way, the economy is not great. Right now, we are in absolutely horrendous debt that some economists think could eventually bankrupt us. Also, unemployment is down, but so is income for most American workers. Close to 40% of Americans working full time are failing to earn a living wage. Try a book or two on the economy.

Thanks

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Well, I do understand where you're coming from, however, this has been something our great greandparents gave to us and we have yet to be truely hit with it. We always hear about the deficit, but no one knows how it affects us.

Here's what happens: We go bankrupt when the interest we pay out becomes more than our income. Since we are bankrupt, we can no longer borrow to pay for government services, so lose millions of jobs, including firemen, cops, and soldiers. Since there is such chaos and so many are out of work, there is too little money to pay for the products produced by our companies. The companies then topple, sending millions more out of work. Depression (I sure am glad we've never been hit by one of those before). Gangs of violent hoboes roaming the land. Our country gets its butt kicked by Canada, which walls our poor (everyone) and starving, even though we are willing to work.
jsarno. Have you ever read anything?

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

I've read a great deal on the election. You are quite right that the Gore camp wanted recounts in specified districts. Unfortunately, your knowledge ends there. As I've said, a recount of only those districts later found Bush the winner of Florida. However, it is totally true and indisputable that a later recount of the whole state showed that Gore had more votes cast for him in Florida than Bush did, which vindicated the exit polls.

Let me be clear.

The Florida (whole state) recount did not and should not have made Gore the winner. He did not ask for a whole state recount; therefore, it was without value as a determinant of the winner.

We do not have a quarrel in regard to logic here. Bush was the legal winner by rule. At the same time, Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush did and the exit polls were vindicated. The problem is that you have no knowledge of the statewide recount. I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

Other matters. Presidents whom I consider great lawbreakers and liars include FDR (civil liberties), Kennedy (imperialist, irresponsible), Johnson (pointless war and lying), Jefferson (imperialism, lying,), Nixon (corruption, mental illness). I have distaste for Jackson (cruelty), Wilson (racism), and Hoover (stupidity), as well as a dislike for others.

Generally speaking, I don't like presidents. I wouldn't go across the street to see one, even though I'm an avid politico. I don't even like Clinton. His pardoning his criminal friends ended whatever respect I had for him.

But this guy, Bush, is far worse than any of the above. He has all the bad traits of the others combined, all. He's as dumb as Hoover and cruel as Jackson, as racist as Wilson and as imperialistic as Jefferson, and so on. Plus, he developed a policy of torture, secret prisons, spied on Americans on a massive scale, has tried to destroy the balance of power, etc., etc.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Well, I do understand where you're coming from, however, this has been something our great greandparents gave to us and we have yet to be truely hit with it. We always hear about the deficit, but no one knows how it affects us.

Here's what happens: We go bankrupt when the interest we pay out becomes more than our income. Since we are bankrupt, we can no longer borrow to pay for government services, so lose millions of jobs, including firemen, cops, and soldiers. Since there is such chaos and so many are out of work, there is too little money to pay for the products produced by our companies. The companies then topple, sending millions more out of work. Depression (I sure am glad we've never been hit by one of those before). Gangs of violent hoboes roaming the land. Our country gets its butt kicked by Canada, which walls out our poor (everyone) and starving, even though we are willing to work.
jsarno. Have you ever read anything?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

Facts you don't seem to be aware of:

The Bufferfly ballot in Palm Beach cost Gore thousands of votes.

Florida declared 80,000 black voters inelgible by falsely declaring them to be felons. Florida imported a felon list from Texas and eliminated every black in Florida who had the same name as a Texas felon.

Gore got more votes for president in Florida than Bush did. This was by final count. I realize that you think otherwise with some reason, but you are wrong. The count you are familiar with was the result of votes cast in disputed districts. Long after the election, a complete vote count of all of Florida showed Gore to be the winner, inspite of the felon's list, and inspite of the Butterfly ballot.

Gore didn't just win Florida by actual count, he should have won Florida by tens of thousands of votes, not just a few thousand.

Note: Opinion is one thing; being wrong about the facts is another. Curiously, however, in regard to the state vote count, the correct numbers wouldn't have mattered anyway. Gore didn't ask the whole state to recount votes, so was technically not entitled to a statewide recount,

What the recount did, however, was vindicate the maligned exit poll, which turned out to be correct and, indeed, did show that the Bush campaign had indeed engaged in funny business.

As we now know, the Bush machine has been fundamentally dishonest to an appalling degree since first appearing on the national scene. The Iraq war, tax giveaways to the rich, corruption, violations of civic liberties, spying, etc. had just been predictable aspects of its nature.

No other administration has ever been just a threat to the truth and liberty as well. Bush is truly not just the worse, but the most destructive and dangerous president in U.S. history. He has disgraced everyone who has ever believed in him.

The butterfly ballot was designed by a Democratic election chairperson. Tough luck for Gore but there is no way of knowing who people meant to vote for, so no claims can be made as to how many votes Gore lost.

I find it improbable that there are 80,000 registered voters in Florida who had the same name as Texas felons and even more improbable that all those voters were black. Perhaps you could document.

I have never seen any recount that showed Gore to be the winner, though many have tried. Again, you might link to something. If what you say is true, then certainly some netroot blogger would be all over it.

I can't make heads ot tails of the section I highlighted. The reason Gore didn't ask for a statewide recount was because he wanted to do it in counties controlled by Democrats and where he was more likely to gain votes, Dade, Broward, etc. He eventually did call for a statewide recount after it became obvious that a selective recount strategy was making him look foolish.

Of course, if you could point to a reputable website that documents a rcount that shows Gore to be the winner then you might actually have a case. I've never seen one and you are the first person that I have heard claim to have knowledge of one. Let's see it.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

The founding fathers believed that laws should protect all of us from unwarranted government intrusion. To believe otherwise is very "un-conservative."

Not to quibble, but the founders believed that only white, land owning males had rights. The sentiment behind what you say is nice, though. Let us try to make it so.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

.

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Not to quibble, but the founders believed that only white, land owning males had rights. The sentiment behind what you say is nice, though. Let us try to make it so.

so we can pick apart certain parts of the constitution, and use only the parts that we agree with? i really wish people would read the ENTIRE second amendment, before they declare their right to bear arms

[MTK]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

It sounds like you want someone who can play the role of President. We had him and all the Democrats said he was an idiot as well. It seems there is no pleasing you.

And "it factor"? Have you been reading the magazines at the Supermarket checkout or something?

He's just not a convincing leader in the least bit. It would be nice if he could at least speak intelligently. I wouldn't even be able to get behind him if he were a manager at McDonald's.

[dmek25]

matty, you started out civil, but have got more and more intense with your posts. why? because some people see a spade, but yet call it a diamond?