The legacy of 'W'?

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

You should read the briefs submitted by BOTH Gore and Bush in Bush v. Gore. I don't think you would have the same image of Gore's camp after doing so. Gore's camp didn't want a total recount, they only wanted recounts of those districts in which Gore had the most supporters. Gore's camp also wanted to exclude absentee ballots submitted by members of the military on technical grounds because they knew 90%+ of them would vote for Bush. Gore didn't win the election, it was a close one, but he lost. I tend to vote for Dems, but they lose points in my book when they harken back to an election that took place almost a decade ago.

And I still do not know how you lambast Bush for being so disrepectful of U.S. law and values, and still probably think FDR was a great president. He's done nothing that other Presidents haven't done. And not to be a d**k, but since you are telling others to read books, I would suggest you do the same and read up on guys like Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR.

I've read a great deal on the election. You are quite right that the Gore camp wanted recounts in specified districts. Unfortunately, your knowledge ends there. As I've said, a recount of only those districts later found Bush the winner of Florida. However, it is totally true and indisputable that a later recount of the whole state showed that Gore had more votes cast for him in Florida than Bush did, which vindicated the exit polls.

Let me be clear.

The Florida (whole state) recount did not and should not have made Gore the winner. He did not ask for a whole state recount; therefore, it was without value as a determinant of the winner.

We do not have a quarrel in regard to logic here. Bush was the legal winner by rule. At the same time, Gore got more votes in Florida than Bush did and the exit polls were vindicated. The problem is that you have no knowledge of the statewide recount. I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

Other matters. Presidents whom I consider great lawbreakers and liars include FDR (civil liberties), Kennedy (imperialist, irresponsible), Johnson (pointless war and lying), Jefferson (imperialism, lying,), Nixon (corruption, mental illness). I have distaste for Jackson (cruelty), Wilson (racism), and Hoover (stupidity), as well as a dislike for others.

Generally speaking, I don't like presidents. I wouldn't go across the street to see one, even though I'm an avid politico. I don't even like Clinton. His pardoning his criminal friends ended whatever respect I had for him.

But this guy, Bush, is far worse than any of the above. He has all the bad traits of the others combined, all. He's as dumb as Hoover and cruel as Jackson, as racist as Wilson and as imperialistic as Jefferson, and so on. Plus, he developed a policy of torture, secret prisons, spied on Americans on a massive scale, has tried to destroy the balance of power, etc., etc.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

By the way, I was also one who wanted to exclude those military ballots. The ballots were late and improperly submitted, technically disqualifying them. It would have been much more graceful to accept them, however, because they came from the military. The reason we didn't was that we knew Florida Republicans had already thrown out 80,000 black voters for phony felon charges and was criminally proceeding to steal the election.

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

So, on the one hand the Gore camp said, "The butterfly ballot was confusing and we should look beyond the voter technical mistakes to try to discern whom they really wanted to vote for" and on the other hand said, "The military personnel technically submitted their votes late and we shouldn't count them even though we know whom they wanted to vote for." The hypocrisy is almost laughable. The notion that Bush stole the election and Gore didn't try to do the same thing makes me laugh.

Finally, I've never heard about 80,000 black voters being disenfranchised via some criminal scheme. The numbers I heard about were much lower and due to various computer glitches. Those allegations were investigated by the Civil Rights Commission and various other independent organizations and there was no solid evidence of a criminal conspiracy.

Frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Sixty minutes reported on what you never heard of, as well as virtually every talk show and newspaper in the country. Blacks from the House of Delegates went to the Senate with the material. All that was needed was for one Senator to back the protest for there to be a major investigation of the already proven disenfranchisement. Gore asked all the Senators in the Senate not to support the House protest. He was apparently in a patriotic mood and decided not to vote for the Congressional investigation. Gore voting "no" was shown on nation television, over and over. No disenfranchisements resulting from computer cliches were protested or alledged.
I realize you believe what you keep saying, but you are factually incorrect again and again. People cannot develope worthwhile opinions without correct data. The prevailing fault of the Bush supporters in this thread is that they are reasoning from incorrect data or attitudes that derive from ignorance of data. Virtually everything jsarno say is wrong, not because of his logic, which is fine, but rather the nonsensical myth and pseudo knowledge he reasons from.
Jeb Bush himself was suspected of being behind employing the Florida Computer firm that used the Texas felon list to knock identically named blacks from the the Florida voting list. There is no doubt that the fraud occurred, only doubt about the identities of the people who sat it up. The computer firm that perpetuated the fraud was paid by the state of Florida with taxpayer money.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

I do, because I was a Dem official and former Dem delegate at the time.

.

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me.

You're not the only one.
While I have been on the other side of your wrath I have always respected you and most people here with your willingness to have a constructive argument. I will never in a million years agree with anything the left says, but I can certainly respect it, and think about what you've said.
Fact is, 99.999999% of us will never change our minds here, but all of us can open our ears and listen without being a jackass.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I've never blocked any poster, but you are temting me. I think this is complete horseshit. Or Crazyhorseshit. Then again, it would take someone like you to try and disqualify military votes. Sorry mods, couldn't help it.

I don't blame you.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't blame you.

You don't blame him for what, precisely? For not knowing there was a statewide recount in Florida that found Bush got more votes than Bush in Florida or for being angry that I have now shown I was right about it and have put him down as arrogantly as he put me down in denying it.

Or do you not blame him for doubting my credentials, which he apparently does without benefit of research?

[RobH4413]

Back to the legacy of Bush...


It's no lie that this is probably one of the hardest times for any U.S. presidents to be in power. He's had to deal with terrorist attacks, hurricanes, scandals, and record low approval ratings.

I'd like to say, he stared adversity in the face, and failed. Does that mean Gore or Kerry would have succeeded? That's up for debate, albeit a pointless one.

He's going down in the history books as a president that did a lot wrong, and the presidency will be weaker for years to come because of it. The balance of power will probably shift towards the senate, and the greatest government of all time will come in and do what it's supposed to do; gather ourselves and change strategy.

Certain presidents of the past have sweet talked congress to pass every bill, but I have a strong feeling that this will become increasingly difficult for the incumbent president.

Regardless of it all, George Bush's legacy will be felt for years to come.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

You don't blame him for what, precisely? For not knowing there was a statewide recount in Florida that found Bush got more votes than Bush in Florida or for being angry that I have now shown I was right about it and have put him down as arrogantly as he put me down in denying it.

Or do you not blame him for doubting my credentials, which he apparently does without benefit of research?

You didn't show you were right about it. You posted a link from one side, just like I (in fairness) posted a link from the other.

I don't blame him for blocking, or wanting to block, you. If I am to be perfectly candid. I think you offer nothing of value to this site. Clearly, all you want to do is constantly push your anti-Bush agenda (so much so that I think you even embarrass those who are philosophically on your side), and berate and belittle those who have the audacity to disagree with Mr. College Professor with a Master's Degree. Hopefully, as the season rolls around you will remember why this site primarily exists; to discuss the Washington Redskins. But I find it curious that you've started nearly 40 threads on multiple Redskins message boards and only two had anything to do with the Redskins.

Admittedly, I am a Republican (Moderate Republican I suppose) but I can respect healthy debate with the Mattyk's, SGG's, Dmek's, and 12thMan's of the world. Sure it can get heated and I get annoyed by what they say sometimes. A lot of times in Dmek's case (no offense D) but at least I know they want to discuss, not preach. I can't say the same for you. But this has nothing to do with your views. It's the arrogance behind the views. You're like a liberal Ann Coulter

I don't know you personally obviously, nor do I care to quite frankly. Of course, many others here feel the same I'm sure. Just as I'm sure there are those who feel that way about me. I'd like to think though that if I stopped posting on this site, something of value would be lost. I understand that I do post a lot of nonsensical stuff (and especially in the off-season) but I think that's balanced by compelling posts and threads (not to toot my own horn too loudly). Again, I can't say the same for you.

What's worse is that, as a professor you're seemingly influencing the minds of tomorrow. I can only hope that those students are smart enough to challenge you (whether to confirm you're right or prove that you're wrong), and that you're enough of a professor to allow them to challenge you.

[Crazyhorse1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

You didn't show you were right about it. You posted a link from one side, just like I (in fairness) posted a link from the other.

I don't blame him for blocking, or wanting to block, you. If I am to be perfectly candid. I think you offer nothing of value to this site. Clearly, all you want to do is constantly push your anti-Bush agenda (so much so that I think you even embarrass those who are philosophically on your side), and berate and belittle those who have the audacity to disagree with Mr. College Professor with a Master's Degree. Hopefully, as the season rolls around you will remember why this site primarily exists; to discuss the Washington Redskins. But I find it curious that you've started nearly 40 threads on multiple Redskins message boards and only two had anything to do with the Redskins.

Admittedly, I am a Republican (Moderate Republican I suppose) but I can respect healthy debate with the Mattyk's, SGG's, Dmek's, and 12thMan's of the world. Sure it can get heated and I get annoyed by what they say sometimes. A lot of times in Dmek's case (no offense D) but at least I know they want to discuss, not preach. I can't say the same for you. But this has nothing to do with your views. It's the arrogance behind the views. You're like a liberal Ann Coulter

I don't know you personally obviously, nor do I care to quite frankly. Of course, many others here feel the same I'm sure. Just as I'm sure there are those who feel that way about me. I'd like to think though that if I stopped posting on this site, something of value would be lost. I understand that I do post a lot of nonsensical stuff (and especially in the off-season) but I think that's balanced by compelling posts and threads (not to toot my own horn too loudly). Again, I can't say the same for you.

What's worse is that, as a professor you're seemingly influencing the minds of tomorrow. I can only hope that those students are smart enough to challenge you (whether to confirm you're right or prove that you're wrong), and that you're enough of a professor to allow them to challenge you.

I have higher degrees than Master's Degrees and teach graduate students. Most of them already have Master's Degrees and are too smart for me to challenge most of the time. I'm 63 and have written a number of books and have over a thousand other publications, all of which I have had to research. I basically guide others in researching and writing their own books and take matters of the mind very seriously.
I'm not writing about football now because there's nothing new going on in football, Right now, we have the untimely deaths of my ex-students and could-be students and others in Iraq, for all the wrong reasons. My method of trying to combat this is to challenge ignorance, propaganda, assumptions, phony data, and expose the lies and myths that currently infect our culture and cause death, as well as endanger our Bill of Rights and Constitution.
This particular thead has been littered by data that is not only utterly garbage but dangerous. It's my duty to challenge it.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse1

I have higher degrees than Master's Degrees and teach graduate students. Most of them already have Master's Degrees and are too smart for me to challenge most of the time. I'm 63 and have written a number of books and have over a thousand other publications, all of which I have had to research. I basically guide others in researching and writing their own books and take matters of the mind very seriously.
I'm not writing about football now because there's nothing new going on in football, Right now, we have the untimely deaths of my ex-students and could-be students and others in Iraq, for all the wrong reasons. My method of trying to combat this is to challenge ignorance, propaganda, assumptions, phony data, and expose the lies and myths that currently infect our culture and cause death, as well as endanger our Bill of Rights and Constitution.
This particular thead has been littered by data that is not only utterly garbage but dangerous. It's my duty to challenge it.

Wow, you're even more arrogant than I thought. "I have higher degrees than Master's Degrees" Goodness...thank you for blessing us with your presence here.

Graduate students at community colleges?

[RobH4413]

I've always loved John McCain.

Poor guy has zero chance now.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I've always loved John McCain.

Poor guy has zero chance now.

I think he could make a great President, but he seems to be a terrible politician