Grand Jury Indicts Vick

[JDALY27]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

Anyone who thinks that Vick will do time over this, don't hold your breath or you will end up in the dirt like those stinkin' dogs.

I am sure that their star witnesses are upstanding citizens. Probably guys who have been busted for drugs or lost their family members money betting on the wrong dog.

Now, he may get suspended, but he will do 0 that is z e r o time.

Now the fact that Goodell would be out of line for him suspending a first time offender over this is a completely different argument.

Not sure what you have against dogs dude?

Vick is no first time offender. He's done in the NFL this year and maybe more......

[Daseal]

That's horrible, electrocuting the dog because he/she lost a fight? Did Mora zap Vick with a cattle prod after every loss?

There are rumors of him picking up a wounded dog who lost a fight (which he bet 40K on) and dropping the dog over his knee after he lost snapping his back. He didn't actually kill it till several hours later. I hope this sick fuck goes to jail forever.

The NFL is looking pretty bad here releasing a statement saying "... let the legal process run it's course." I know one player who wont be playing this year who also hasn't been convicted of a damn thing. Roger Goodell said something about giving the NFL a black eye will get you suspended. This definitely gives them a black eye.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by Daseal

There are rumors of him picking up a wounded dog who lost a fight (which he bet 40K on) and dropping the dog over his knee after he lost snapping his back. He didn't actually kill it till several hours later. I hope this sick fuck goes to jail forever.

The NFL is looking pretty bad here releasing a statement saying "... let the legal process run it's course." I know one player who wont be playing this year who also hasn't been convicted of a damn thing. Roger Goodell said something about giving the NFL a black eye will get you suspended. This definitely gives them a black eye.

I also heard about someone who woke up in a tub of ice with their kidneys removed.

Ever heard of an urban legend?

The way people run with this is sickening.

What is the NFL supposed to do? By the way, we live in the United States, not Nazi Germany.

Due process anyone?

[jgalecpa]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

Ever heard of an urban legend?

Last I heard, Grand Jury indictments go a little beyond 'urban legend'.

Due process?

We are not talking about someone who has had zero problems with the law.

WE are not the US governement.

The court of public opinion has given him all the process he is due.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by jgalecpa

Last I heard, Grand Jury indictments go a little beyond 'urban legend'.

Due process?

We are not talking about someone who has had zero problems with the law.

WE are not the US governement.

The court of public opinion has given him all the process he is due.

I was talking about the stupid story about him breaking a dog's back. Your mind is already made up (based on zero factual knowledge by the way) so it isn't even worth discussing with you.

The Duke lacrosse players were indicted too. How did that work out?

Like I said before. Is anyone considering the source? I am sure the people who are going to testify are upstanding members of society who just felt like doing a good deed by giving up information on him.

What problems with the law. Oh yeah, the water bottle incident where he wasn't charged with a single thing. Another public opinion case that he lost.

"Government of the people for the people by the people" We aren't the government? Sit on granddad's knee so I can help you find a clue.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

I was talking about the stupid story about him breaking a dog's back. Your mind is already made up (based on zero factual knowledge by the way) so it isn't even worth discussing with you.

Like I said before. Is anyone considering the source? I am sure the people who are going to testify are upstanding members of society who just felt like doing a good deed by giving up information on him.

"Government of the people for the people by the people" We aren't the government? Sit on granddad's knee so I can help you find a clue.

First of all, who's mind is made up? According to you, there is "zero" chance Vick gets convicted for this. Exactly what "factual knowledge" do you have about this case that we don't that makes you so sure?

Second, people have been convicted of far greater crimes with worse witnesses than what the government has lined up here. In an interview on ESPN last night they interviewed an informant who has already assisted the feds in numerous other cases leading to search warrants and convictions.

Third, I'm not sure I understand the point of your quote, as the quote is meant to refer to our democratic system of representative governement (not the court systems), but in any event, the fact that Vick's jury will be comprised of members of the public actually works against your argument that he won't be convicted of these crimes. The fact that we are all horrified by the accusations made against Vick and that we all have the common sense to put two plus two together to figure out what really happened here doesn't bode well for Vick.

I mean come on, there are absolute facts here that just don't add up to a "not-guilty" verdict. Vick comes into money for the first time in his life, immediately sets about buying a property that is unquestionably used for dog fighting based on the condition of the property and the instruments found there, numerous witnesses come forward placing Vick at dog fights, and we're supposed to believe he didn't know what was going on? Give me a break. Please tell me one single fact you've heard that tends to prove his innocence.

Finally, as for the "urban legend", the indictment notes that at least one dog was killed by Vick and company by slamming the dog's body to the ground. You might want to read through the whole indictment before you come to this scumbag's defense.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

I was talking about the stupid story about him breaking a dog's back. Your mind is already made up (based on zero factual knowledge by the way) so it isn't even worth discussing with you.

The Duke lacrosse players were indicted too. How did that work out?

Like I said before. Is anyone considering the source? I am sure the people who are going to testify are upstanding members of society who just felt like doing a good deed by giving up information on him.

What problems with the law. Oh yeah, the water bottle incident where he wasn't charged with a single thing. Another public opinion case that he lost.

"Government of the people for the people by the people" We aren't the government? Sit on granddad's knee so I can help you find a clue.

A VT alumn?

The guy is in this, and in it DEEP! you would be niave to thing he isn't. Who pays for all this stuff at the house when not a single one of those fools are employed? Who paid for the house when his boys scoped it out and said this would be good. the 18 page document seemed to be pretty specific about a lot of the details. It sounded to me like they have the written proof putting Vick some what involved in this mess. They seem to have 4 witnesses putting Vick at the fights, agreeing to monetary bets, and killing the dogs.
The Duke Lacross thing was a little different. there was no evidence those kids did anything from the get go. All of that was based on what she said - he said crap. And you saw what happened to that prosecutor! I believe the Feds took their time gathering the evidence. They obviously have some pretty definative proof of Vicks involvement.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Grim21Reaper

I also heard about someone who woke up in a tub of ice with their kidneys removed.

Ever heard of an urban legend?

The way people run with this is sickening.

What is the NFL supposed to do? By the way, we live in the United States, not Nazi Germany.

Due process anyone?

I have to side with Grim on this one, he deserves to have a fair trial before any punitive action is taken by the league.

That being said, it's not looking good for him at this point. If he is found guilty of what is alleged I hope he never plays another down again.

[djnemo65]

ESPN - Federal indictment intensifies Vick's legal issues - NFL

Excellent article detailing the depth of the challenge Vick faces

[hooskins]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I have to side with Grim on this one, he deserves to have a fair trial before any punitive action is taken by the league.

That being said, it's not looking good for him at this point. If he is found guilty of what is alleged I hope he never plays another down again.

I agree he deserves a fair trial but the federal government usually doesn't fuck around for the fun of it. The feds have been doing this for 2 years along with the grand jury. There has been some seriously stuff going on that we didn't know.

This is not like the Duke lacrosse charges that were brought up by some local DA. Of course he might not face jail time or whatever, but the way this is going Vick is gonna have to plea to some lesser charge. I highly doubt he will actually fight this unless he truely is innocent. I mean the feds cited 84 instances of cruelty from drowning dogs to dog rape stands. Why would the government go out of their way to charge a high profile athlete? Due to limited funds and other priorities I doubt the government would base this all on circumstantual evidence. They got a solid 2 year case going on here.

I think everyone has the right to say what they feel about Vick. Give the man his trial but Grim and others need to realize this is the Feds, it is a whole different ballgame. The chances of this being just some big misunderstanding at one of his properties seems to be decreasing.

[jsarno]

This is retarded:
on charges of sponsoring a dogfighting operation so grisly the losers either died in the pit or sometimes were electrocuted, drowned, hanged or shot.
And the MAX he would get is 6 years????? That's wrong...he should get a lot more than just 6 years for brutally killing animals. That's plain wrong, and upsetting.

[Daseal]

Grim Reaper and Nemo: When Goodell released his player conduct policy one of the things in it that I didn't like was that someone could be suspended before any sort of conviction from due process came around. Simply putting yourself in the position to get in trouble was enough. However, I don't feel you can suspend pac-man and chris henry (not sure if he's gone to trial yet) if they haven't been convicted, then let Vick slide. Sounds a bit unfair to suspend one person for all of the alleged things they've done yet let the league poster-boy go.

Personally, I wish that everyone had to be convicted before the league could take any action. Hell, ST probably would have been out for 4 games when he had all of his legal troubles. The NFL needs to stay consistent with their rulings. While I think Vick is guilty, that story about him breaking the dogs back is nothing but rumor until proven otherwise. However, I have heard stories about Vick dog fighting when he was at tech, I marked it down to rumor but things are really starting to point against Vick. If he did it, I hope he goes down and hard. If he didn't I hope he comes out innocent when everything is all said and done, but I doubt he will.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Grim Reaper and Nemo: When Goodell released his player conduct policy one of the things in it that I didn't like was that someone could be suspended before any sort of conviction from due process came around. Simply putting yourself in the position to get in trouble was enough. However, I don't feel you can suspend pac-man and chris henry (not sure if he's gone to trial yet) if they haven't been convicted, then let Vick slide. Sounds a bit unfair to suspend one person for all of the alleged things they've done yet let the league poster-boy go.

Personally, I wish that everyone had to be convicted before the league could take any action. Hell, ST probably would have been out for 4 games when he had all of his legal troubles. The NFL needs to stay consistent with their rulings. While I think Vick is guilty, that story about him breaking the dogs back is nothing but rumor until proven otherwise. However, I have heard stories about Vick dog fighting when he was at tech, I marked it down to rumor but things are really starting to point against Vick. If he did it, I hope he goes down and hard. If he didn't I hope he comes out innocent when everything is all said and done, but I doubt he will.

I agree with you in this sense: Vick doesn't have to be convicted, it only has to be proven that he had knowledge of or was in attendance at said events. If that can be proven, and it seems like that won't be a stretch at this point, that he is at least guilty of lying to the commissioner.

It is important to note that a critical standard in the NFL's conduct policy is repeat offenses, so ST would have been safe pending his trial. Vick is technically a first time offender as well, although this is an extraordinary crime.

Anyway, all this aside, I think a suspension should be the least of the man's worries right now.

[BrudLee]

Noted bastion of good journalism ProFootballTalk.com has correctly noted that Vick could face a lifetime ban for being involved in gambling activities that bring disrepute to the league. He sponsored an interstate dogfighting ring, placed bets on dogs, and killed dogs whose performance did not meet his standards. That's almost textbook "disrepute".

By the way, we malign ProFootballTalk for reporting conjecture frequently, but they have been way out in front on this story. I urge those who haven't to read their coverage.

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

Noted bastion of good journalism ProFootballTalk.com has correctly noted that Vick could face a lifetime ban for being involved in gambling activities that bring disrepute to the league. He sponsored an interstate dogfighting ring, placed bets on dogs, and killed dogs whose performance did not meet his standards. That's almost textbook "disrepute".

By the way, we malign ProFootballTalk for reporting conjecture frequently, but they have been way out in front on this story. I urge those who haven't to read their coverage.

I'm listening to Boomer Esiason on the radio right now and he said that although he normally hates PFT he feels like they have been top notch covering this case. Apparently the guy who runs the site is or was a lawyer and he seems to really know the ins and outs of this sort of thing.