How Many Games Should Vick Be Suspended?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

I wonder if your employer should be free to suspend you if you're accused of a hit-and-run with your car.

If there is a dead guy, on top of your car, which is sitting in your garage, I think a suspension is warranted. To think that Vick is innocent of the charges is almost crazy. How a guy doesn't know that he has several buildings painted black on his property with dozens of dead dogs in his yard escapes me. If he's not guilty of running a dog-fighting ring, he's guilty of being one of the dumbest guys on the face of the earth.

Besides, as others have noted, the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" applies to criminal proceedings. A person can be held civilly liable for misconduct if a jury simply decides that it is more likely than not that the person committed the tortious act. For example, OJ was NOT convicted of a crime, but was held civilly liable.

Moreover, employers can suspend or fire employees based on hearsay or other types of evidence that a jury would never hear. Employers need not conduct mini-trials or await criminal convictions before firing an employee for inappropriate conduct. People do and should get fired all the time for sexual harassment, racist remarks, etc. even though no trial was held. I'm not sure why we have elevated the "right" to play in the NFL above what it is.....a job.

I don't think many Vick supporters would be happy if some jerk at work who made racist remarks or who exercised his right to free speech by bearing a swastika tat on his forehead had to be convicted of a crime before an employer could fire him.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

If there is a dead guy, on top of your car, which is sitting in your garage, I think a suspension is warranted. To think that Vick is innocent of the charges is almost crazy. How a guy doesn't know that he has several buildings painted black on his property with dozens of dead dogs in his yard escapes me. If he's not guilty of running a dog-fighting ring, he's guilty of being one of the dumbest guys on the face of the earth.

Besides, as others have noted, the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" applies to criminal proceedings. A person can be held civilly liable for misconduct if a jury simply decides that it is more likely than not that the person committed the tortious act.

Moreover, employers can suspend or fire employees based on hearsay or other types of evidence that a jury would never hear. Employers need not conduct mini-trials or await criminal convictions before firing an employee for inappropriate conduct. People do and should get fired all the time for sexual harassment, racist remarks, etc. even though no trial was held. I'm not sure why we have elevated the "right" to play in the NFL above what it is.....a job.

I highly doubt Vick is innocent but I don't like the notion that we convict someone before he's convicted in court (civil and criminal). It would set an unbelievable precedence to have people convicted by their employer merely for being indicted/investigate.

No doubt, your employer will want you out if you're under suspicion for a criminal act but they don't terminate you right there and then. You reach an agreement and part company amicably.

Sure, they can fire you at will but the truth is there is no such thing when you know your rights. If you're unjustly terminated you have recourse through the court system. Bob, meet my lawyer. His name is John Payme and he likes to get paid and so do I Bob.

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by saden1

I highly doubt Vick is innocent but I don't like notion that we convict someone before he's convicted in court (civil and criminal). It would set an unbelievable presence to have people convicted by their employer merely for being indicted/investigate.

No doubt, your employer will want you out if you're under suspicion for a criminal act but they don't terminate you right there and then. You reach an agreement and part company amicably.

Sure, they can fire you at will but the truth is there is no such thing when you know your rights. If you're unjustly terminated you have recourse through the court system. Bob, meet my lawyer. His name is John Payme and he likes to get paid and so do I Bob.

again.. I think this is not as simple as an employer/employee relationship. He is a public figure, and that does make a difference in how you handle these things.. and it will also send a message to the young players out there watching how the NFL responds. As a pro athlete he has a responsibilty to the public, as an individual at work you do not. He didn't respect his role in life, or his priviledge of being who he is.... All that god given talent that he has, and he made a choice to be "involved" in this..and you think he should get away with this because he's a paid employee? It's not right.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by hesscl34

again.. I think this is not as simple as an employer/employee relationship. He is a public figure, and that does make a difference in how you handle these things.. and it will also send a message to the young players out there watching how the NFL responds. As a pro athlete he has a responsibilty to the public, as an individual at work you do not. He didn't respect his role in life, or his priviledge of being who he is....

So you think public figures should be held to a higher standard and when they falter we should make an example out of them? The NFL is the parent, Vick is the older child, and younger players and the public are the younger children? Do I have it right?

You think too highly of public figures. They are people just like the rest of us. They're only responsible for themselves, their family, and to people they care about.

Originally Posted by hesscl34

All that god given talent that he has, and he made a choice to be "involved" in this..and you think he should get away with this because he's a paid employee? It's not right.

Were did I say that?

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by saden1

So you think public figures should be held to a higher standard and when they falter we should make an example out of them? The NFL is the parent, Vick is the older child, and younger players and the public are the younger children? Do I have it right?

You think too highly of public figures. They are people just like the rest of us. They're only responsible for themselves, their family, and to people they care about.



Were did I say that?

No, they are not only respnosible for themselves. Not when they have thousands of young kids looking up to them.

And I wasn't talking about "you" saying that.. just over all.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by hesscl34

No, they are not only respnosible for themselves. Not when they have thousands of young kids looking up to them.

And I wasn't talking about "you" saying that.. just over all.

Ah, role model for this kids argument. We have to show the kids how bad of a man he is? That'll teach them a valuable life lesson not to do as he did.

What if Vick is not convicted? What's the lesson there? Money talks bullshit walks? Become a pro athlete and you can get away with anything?

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by saden1

Ah, role model for this kids argument. We have to show the kids how bad of a man he is? That'll teach them a valuable life lesson not to do as he did.

What if Vick is not convicted? What's the lesson there? Money talks bullshit walks? Become a pro athlete and you can get away with anything?

Let's be realistic here. We all know he was involved.. if he gets off, then good for him (for having a smart lawyer), but at the end of the day he WAS involved, and that is enough I think for the NFL to take action. They have tape of him telling one of the owners to kill a dog... how is that not involved? If I were in his shoes I'd be thankful for the gift of my talent, I wouldn't be throwing it away for some thug dog fighting ring. The NFL needs a serious "clean up" in my opinon. Give these kids something to strive for, to have a better life.... don't turn a blind eye and let them be criminals AND pro athletes.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by saden1

I highly doubt Vick is innocent but I don't like the notion that we convict someone before he's convicted in court (civil and criminal). It would set an unbelievable precedence to have people convicted by their employer merely for being indicted/investigate.

No doubt, your employer will want you out if you're under suspicion for a criminal act but they don't terminate you right there and then. You reach an agreement and part company amicably.

Sure, they can fire you at will but the truth is there is no such thing when you know your rights. If you're unjustly terminated you have recourse through the court system. Bob, meet my lawyer. His name is John Payme and he likes to get paid and so do I Bob.

If the NFL suspended Vick, it wouldn't mean that they had "convicted" him of anything. It wouldn't reflect their opinion of his guilt, and it wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the charges. It would have EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they don't want players with countless dead dogs buried in their backyard, 50 dogs tied to car axles in the back yard, bloody carpet, etc in the league. It isn't good for business.

It's simple: if you're an asshole, your employer could fire you. If you smell bad, your employer could fire you. If you engage in unethical behavior, or are suspected of such behavior, your employer could fire you. I believe every employer has that right, and I don't think there is a single thing wrong with it.

Another thing: so much of this is based on physical evidence -- not some witness that could be wrong or have an axe to grind. It is clear that Vick owned property where this evidence was found -- he is not disputing that. His only defense is that he didn't know, and that is a totally weak argument.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

If the NFL suspended Vick, it wouldn't mean that they had "convicted" him of anything. It wouldn't reflect their opinion of his guilt, and it wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the charges. It would have EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they don't want players with countless dead dogs buried in their backyard, 50 dogs tied to car axles in the back yard, bloody carpet, etc in the league. It isn't good for business.

It's simple: if you're an asshole, your employer could fire you. If you smell bad, your employer could fire you. If you engage in unethical behavior, or are suspected of such behavior, your employer could fire you. I believe every employer has that right, and I don't think there is a single thing wrong with it.

Another thing: so much of this is based on physical evidence -- not some witness that could be wrong or have an axe to grind. It is clear that Vick owned property where this evidence was found -- he is not disputing that. His only defense is that he didn't know, and that is a totally weak argument.

Not knowning is not a totaly week argument but is really his only argument. People have said that if a person is selling drugs from an apartment or a house they rent that the cops could take the house from the landlord which is not correct. If this was the case about 80% of drug bust are in rental properties and the landlords never loose the property or have legal issues. Now if the landlord allowed crimes to go on then the cops could take the property. I'm not trying to defend Vick with this but only clearing up the issue of the landlords.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Not knowning is not a totaly week argument but is really his only argument. People have said that if a person is selling drugs from an apartment or a house they rent that the cops could take the house from the landlord which is not correct. If this was the case about 80% of drug bust are in rental properties and the landlords never loose the property or have legal issues. Now if the landlord allowed crimes to go on then the cops could take the property. I'm not trying to defend Vick with this but only clearing up the issue of the landlords.

The question is: was Vick acting as a landlord? Was there a rental agreement? I highly doubt it. In which case, the argument of ignorance is totally weak.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

If the NFL suspended Vick, it wouldn't mean that they had "convicted" him of anything. It wouldn't reflect their opinion of his guilt, and it wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with the charges. It would have EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they don't want players with countless dead dogs buried in their backyard, 50 dogs tied to car axles in the back yard, bloody carpet, etc in the league. It isn't good for business.

So in essence the NFL can say we don't know if you're guilty but we're going to suspend you anyways because you're suspected of wrong doing? What's the point of our justice system if employers and take upon themselves the power of judge, jury and executioner?

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

It's simple: if you're an asshole, your employer could fire you. If you smell bad, your employer could fire you. If you engage in unethical behavior, or are suspected of such behavior, your employer could fire you. I believe every employer has that right, and I don't think there is a single thing wrong with it.

Without concrete proof or reason? Without offering a substantial severance package for me to go away? Man, you would make a great employee.

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Another thing: so much of this is based on physical evidence -- not some witness that could be wrong or have an axe to grind. It is clear that Vick owned property where this evidence was found -- he is not disputing that. His only defense is that he didn't know, and that is a totally weak argument.

You're scaring the hell out of me.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by saden1

So in essence the NFL can say we don't know if you're guilty but we're going to suspend you anyways because you're suspected of wrong doing? What's the point of our justice system if employers and take upon themselves the power of judge, jury and executioner?

Do you *think* Vick had several dog carcasses and over 50 dogs chained to car axles in the backyard, or do you *know*? The FBI discovered that evidence and released the information to the public. Although it is quite possible the FBI is lying, it is not likely at all. So, I'm not talking about the NFL suspending him for *suspicion* of wrong doing. I'm talking about the NFL suspending him for what they already know from the FBI reports, and I don't think that is unreasonable at all.

Originally Posted by saden1

Without concrete proof or reason? Without offering a substantial severance package for me to go away? Man, you would make a great employee.

I never said I would do that. I am a very loyal person. I just said that I think it is the employer's right, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I cannot justify criticizing an employer's right to choose who they want to do their work. It's their money and they don't *have* to employ anyone if they don't want to.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

Do you *think* Vick had several dog carcasses and over 50 dogs chained to car axles in the backyard, or do you *know*? The FBI discovered that evidence and released the information to the public. Although it is quite possible the FBI is lying, it is not likely at all. So, I'm not talking about the NFL suspending him for *suspicion* of wrong doing. I'm talking about the NFL suspending him for what they already know from the FBI reports, and I don't think that is unreasonable at all.

I never said I would do that. I am a very loyal person. I just said that I think it is the employer's right, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I cannot justify criticizing an employer's right to choose who they want to do their work. It's their money and they don't *have* to employ anyone if they don't want to.

You, me, and the rest of the world not withstanding Vick's claim is that he had no knowledge (total BS IMO) and he has a right to due process. He has a right to have is case heard before any harmful action is taken against him by the league.

This whole matter is pretty self explanatory to me. I don't get why people want him to be suspended ASAP without first getting to the heart of the claim and his defense.


p.s. Even when cops are accused of wrong doing they are first suspended with pay. The same rules that apply to everyone else should apply to Vick as well is all I'm saying.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by saden1

You, me, and the rest of the world not withstanding Vick's claim is that he had no knowledge (total BS IMO) and he has a right to due process. He has a right to have is case heard before any harmful action is taken against him by the league.

Honest question, Saden: were you against the Pacman suspension too?

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by saden1

You, me, and the rest of the world not withstanding Vick's claim is that he had no knowledge (total BS IMO) and he has a right to due process. He has a right to have is case heard before any harmful action is taken against him by the league.

This whole matter is pretty self explanatory to me. I don't get why people want him to be suspended ASAP without first getting to the heart of the claim and his defense.


p.s. Even when cops are accused of wrong doing they are first suspended with pay. The same rules that apply to everyone else should apply to Vick as well is all I'm saying.

You are right. I don't see much harm in waiting. However, he has already done damage to the league, and that is enough justification to suspend him, IMO. I know you might want to say, "we can't conclude that he has personally done damage, until he is proven guilty. The damage came from the accusations." However, it is very rare that innocent and upstanding citizens have false accusations made about them -- by the FBI -- especially when there is physical evidence.