Second look at Ramsey

bedlamVR · 09-21-2004, 06:39 PM

No doubting the team got better when McNabb got there but he is a peice not the key, the team does not live through his physical talents. I cannot rember who he took over from but I seem to remember Pete ws thier starter for a while. McNabb is good don't get me wrong but he has a team, coaching staff and fan base that belive in him and he went some though some very rocky periods and you only have to look at his career compleation rate to wonder where he lies in notable mentions at the Qb position, but theEagles stook with him even after the booing he got from Rasicit bigoted fans they have up there in the City of brotherly love.

People argue the NFL is win now but without patience and giving players time to grow you never will win not now not tomorrow... rome was not built in a day

sportscurmudgeon · 09-21-2004, 07:01 PM

bedlamVR:

Two simple questions for you.

1. You are the Redskins GM. The Eagles call you and offer to trade Donovan McNabb for Patrick Ramsey even up. Do you tell them to pound sand up their butt or do you go to Joe Gibbs to see what he thinks about that?

2. Same scenario. The Vikes call and want to do the deal for Duante Culpepper even up. What do you do?

Here's a tougher one:

The Jaguars call and offer Leftwich for Ramsey even-up. Joe Gibbs asks your opinion; what do you tell him?

Hogskin · 09-21-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedlamVR

No doubting the team got better when McNabb got there but he is a peice not the key, the team does not live through his physical talents. I cannot rember who he took over from but I seem to remember Pete ws thier starter for a while.

You are way off on this one. As I said, the team got better when he arrived, and it appeared it was because of him. They were 3-13 in 1998 without him. He played less than half the time (mostly subbing) in 1999, and they were 5-11.

He started full time in 2000. They were 11-5 and made the playoffs - amazing turnaround. Then the next 3 years they went to the NFC championship. And all through that time, as Madden says, they have not had a #1 quality receiver. Their defense was great, and their offense went from horrible to good with McNabb as the catalyst. It should get VERY good now that they have a real #1 receiver.

BossHog · 09-21-2004, 07:38 PM

Hmmm. Some guys are willing to give Ramsey a chance, but no one is letting Gardner off the hook. Overall, it wasn't too bad a game. The score supported that.

Hogskin · 09-21-2004, 08:55 PM

My problem with Gardner was not this game (not even close). It is his pattern ever since he was drafted, of choking - dropping easy passes in critical situations - 3rd down passes that would make a 1st, and TD's when we are behind. His occasional circus catch does not offset this. Unfortunately, like Norv Turner's occasional wins, it just enables him to keep his job.

That Guy · 09-21-2004, 09:19 PM

hogskin, just cause they started winning with him doesn't mean he's awesome, it could have been that the last guy was just REALLY bad... though i'd agree that he's a very important (and good) part of the offense... him and T.O. are the #1 and #2, and they seem to be able to make things go just fine...

anyone who wouldn't take daunte or mcnabb over ramsey is silly... though i wish daunte didn't fumble so damn much

for leftwich, i don't know, i've never been on BL's bandwagon, and i've watched him a couple times, but not enough to really know if he's worth much...

i would take ramsey over flutie, testes, boller, feely, warner, grossman, dorsey, mccown, rattay, and maybe leftwich or bledsoe, and i wouldn't trade him for oldies like gannon or maddox (not that old i know)... i know that gives him benefit of the doubt...

as far as 2nd stringers, gus, roth., or collins would be decent... manning is in a different class (money/talent wise), and for a future elite QB is still raw (his bro came in much more polished)...

that about as extensive as i can be without really refering to stat charts, tape and the like...

That Guy · 09-21-2004, 09:45 PM

and if we win you'll eat the crow?>

SUNRA · 09-21-2004, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

and if we win you'll eat the crow?>

I was born in Washington, D.C. at D.C.General Hospital. The hospital is right across the street from RFK Stadium. I'll eat the crow, just like I unfortunately had to shake the hand of Giants fans as I left the stadium.

Hogskin · 09-21-2004, 11:01 PM

Sunra, your post brought back some great memories. In the 60's I was doing software support for IBM, and DC General was one of my many accounts. Spent a lot of time there. AND spent a LOT of time at REDSKIN games in the 50's through 80's. Sure do miss going out to the stadium. Some great Sundays. And like you said earlier, you sure see a lot from a good seat that the cameras miss.

bedlamVR · 09-22-2004, 01:34 AM

I think one of the key things here in Mattys origional post is that it wasn't down to Ramsey alone recivers dropped balls/didn't finish routes etc.

When he came into the game at 20-7 his only option was to try and win the game had he done nothing not thrown and interception and not turn the ball over yet the scoreline stayed the same would that have been better? At least with him in the game we had a chance .

As for the comment about every QB has to learn a new system every year you will find the sucessful teams are the ones whe the OC and offensive philosophy stay the same. Sure the Vikes offence for example will have new wrinkles in it every year, but with the same coach and philosophy these wrinkles will be minor changes building on what was working last year. Players have confidence in a winning system and execute it far better. When you undergo such dramatic change in personel as the Skins did this year then it is like starting afresh. Many people point at the changes the Giants underwent this year also yet they really didn't win this game as opposed the the Skins loosing it.

Sure players have training camp to get the fundementals of any new system down but until you get into the season and against live fire it is hard for any players to translate it into game play .

joecrisp · 09-22-2004, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bedlamVR

As for the comment about every QB has to learn a new system every year you will find the sucessful teams are the ones whe the OC and offensive philosophy stay the same. Sure the Vikes offence for example will have new wrinkles in it every year, but with the same coach and philosophy these wrinkles will be minor changes building on what was working last year. Players have confidence in a winning system and execute it far better. When you undergo such dramatic change in personel as the Skins did this year then it is like starting afresh. Many people point at the changes the Giants underwent this year also yet they really didn't win this game as opposed the the Skins loosing it.

Sure players have training camp to get the fundementals of any new system down but until you get into the season and against live fire it is hard for any players to translate it into game play .

I was getting ready to post the same things, but I'm glad to see you beat me to it!

Ramsey has had perhaps the bumpiest introduction to the NFL that any quarterback could undergo. Spurrier's impact on this kid is going to take some time to undo, but if any coaching staff can do it, this one can.

As for project QBs being a thing of the past, let's not be so quick to jump to conclusions based on Tom Brady's stellar ascent to NFL God status. Tom Brady is an exceptional player on an exceptional team with an exceptional coaching staff. To look at him and expect all QBs to be measured by his standard is a little unrealistic. It's like saying, "Okay, now any quarterback we draft must take us to 2 Super Bowls in 3 years, or we'll just have to drop him and move in another direction."

RedskinPete · 09-22-2004, 03:46 AM

Ramsey has a long way to go. Under Gibbs he could be a very good QB. Burnell if younger would also be what we need . But he is not. His arm is weak and is moving down not up. What we need from him is to teach Ramsey! I remember another Redskin QB that looked so bad the fans wanted to run him out of town. He worked out fine Joe T!!!! So I hope Ramsey makes it because if not Burnell will not make it all the way through a season and we will need to look for someone else next year!

BleedBurgundy · 09-22-2004, 05:13 AM

Maybe I'm just a hopeful Patrick Ramsey Apologist ass, but- When Ramsey came in the game for an already injured Brunell (ok, who had week two in the pool?) I felt like he gave our offense a chance to win, (something I haven't gotten from Brunell.) I think that when Brunell was brought in, it was as a veteran QB who would not LOSE games for us. No one expected him to come in here and light it up. But, if not for stellar play from our defense in week one, you have to say Brunell gave it his best shot at losing us that game by fumbling near our endzone. I just don't see him being able to put the team on his back and win any for us. His whole value is based upon experience and decision making and I don't believe that with what we've seen from both QB's so far that you can give a decided advantage to either in the decision making phase of the game. As for PR, 3 picks when you're forcing the ball to try and win as the clock ticks down? Give me a break, yeah it's not great, but what do you expect, that's the time of the game when you have to gamble to win. I was just as dumbstruck by that last INT as ya'll were, but I understood the first two. Bottom line, Ramsey has physical skills Brunell doesn't. Brunell has experience that PR lacks. But if we don't see the benefit of that experience on Sundays, what good does it do?

Anyway, we played a 100% awful game on offense. Period. If we had lucked out, scored and won, would you all feel a lot better? I don't know about you, but I was screaming at my tv during that game. I'm not down on this team, but sometimes a good ass beating isn't the worst thing for a team to get, better than a cheap win that over inflates the collective ego.

SkinsRock · 09-22-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Anyway, we played a 100% awful game on offense. Period. If we had lucked out, scored and won, would you all feel a lot better? I don't know about you, but I was screaming at my tv during that game. I'm not down on this team, but sometimes a good ass beating isn't the worst thing for a team to get, better than a cheap win that over inflates the collective ego.

It is actually a good thing that we didn't pull it out and win. Good defense winning an ugly game is one thing, but this performance by the offense was inexcusable. Seven turnovers are going to make you lose 99% of the time, and if we would have been that 1% and won, that lesson would be harder to teach. I truly believe that this horrible game will make the team better and will motivate them to crush Dallass and get on a roll for the rest of the year.

SmootSmack · 09-22-2004, 02:44 PM

SkinsRock I completely agree. You never like to lose that's for sure. But considering the type of game the Skins played on Sunday pulling out a victory might have been the worst thing that could happen to them. They'd think they were untouchable and destined for greatness.

Monday is going to be a tough, tough battle-almost at the level of Canes and my battle in the $$ league this weekend-and I'm reluctant to make any prediction but regardless of the outcome I want the Redskins to play smart and tough. If they do that then we can say that they benefitted from Sunday's loss...if not...

09-21-2004, 08:55 PM	#5
Hogskin Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hartselle, Alabama Age: 85 Posts: 659	My problem with Gardner was not this game (not even close). It is his pattern ever since he was drafted, of choking - dropping easy passes in critical situations - 3rd down passes that would make a 1st, and TD's when we are behind. His occasional circus catch does not offset this. Unfortunately, like Norv Turner's occasional wins, it just enables him to keep his job. __________________ John Shaffer National Fantasy Sports Leagues, Inc. Home of "The BEST Game In Town" since 1990

09-21-2004, 11:01 PM	#9
Hogskin Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hartselle, Alabama Age: 85 Posts: 659	Sunra, your post brought back some great memories. In the 60's I was doing software support for IBM, and DC General was one of my many accounts. Spent a lot of time there. AND spent a LOT of time at REDSKIN games in the 50's through 80's. Sure do miss going out to the stadium. Some great Sundays. And like you said earlier, you sure see a lot from a good seat that the cameras miss. __________________ John Shaffer National Fantasy Sports Leagues, Inc. Home of "The BEST Game In Town" since 1990

09-22-2004, 02:44 PM	#15
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	SkinsRock I completely agree. You never like to lose that's for sure. But considering the type of game the Skins played on Sunday pulling out a victory might have been the worst thing that could happen to them. They'd think they were untouchable and destined for greatness. Monday is going to be a tough, tough battle-almost at the level of Canes and my battle in the $$ league this weekend-and I'm reluctant to make any prediction but regardless of the outcome I want the Redskins to play smart and tough. If they do that then we can say that they benefitted from Sunday's loss...if not... __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

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09-21-2004, 06:39 PM	#1
bedlamVR Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 389	No doubting the team got better when McNabb got there but he is a peice not the key, the team does not live through his physical talents. I cannot rember who he took over from but I seem to remember Pete ws thier starter for a while. McNabb is good don't get me wrong but he has a team, coaching staff and fan base that belive in him and he went some though some very rocky periods and you only have to look at his career compleation rate to wonder where he lies in notable mentions at the Qb position, but theEagles stook with him even after the booing he got from Rasicit bigoted fans they have up there in the City of brotherly love. People argue the NFL is win now but without patience and giving players time to grow you never will win not now not tomorrow... rome was not built in a day

09-21-2004, 07:01 PM	#2
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	bedlamVR: Two simple questions for you. 1. You are the Redskins GM. The Eagles call you and offer to trade Donovan McNabb for Patrick Ramsey even up. Do you tell them to pound sand up their butt or do you go to Joe Gibbs to see what he thinks about that? 2. Same scenario. The Vikes call and want to do the deal for Duante Culpepper even up. What do you do? Here's a tougher one: The Jaguars call and offer Leftwich for Ramsey even-up. Joe Gibbs asks your opinion; what do you tell him? __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

09-21-2004, 07:38 PM	#4
BossHog Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Norfolk, Va Posts: 665	Hmmm. Some guys are willing to give Ramsey a chance, but no one is letting Gardner off the hook. Overall, it wasn't too bad a game. The score supported that.

09-21-2004, 09:19 PM	#6
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 43 Posts: 17,620	hogskin, just cause they started winning with him doesn't mean he's awesome, it could have been that the last guy was just REALLY bad... though i'd agree that he's a very important (and good) part of the offense... him and T.O. are the #1 and #2, and they seem to be able to make things go just fine... anyone who wouldn't take daunte or mcnabb over ramsey is silly... though i wish daunte didn't fumble so damn much for leftwich, i don't know, i've never been on BL's bandwagon, and i've watched him a couple times, but not enough to really know if he's worth much... i would take ramsey over flutie, testes, boller, feely, warner, grossman, dorsey, mccown, rattay, and maybe leftwich or bledsoe, and i wouldn't trade him for oldies like gannon or maddox (not that old i know)... i know that gives him benefit of the doubt... as far as 2nd stringers, gus, roth., or collins would be decent... manning is in a different class (money/talent wise), and for a future elite QB is still raw (his bro came in much more polished)... that about as extensive as i can be without really refering to stat charts, tape and the like...

09-21-2004, 09:45 PM	#7
That Guy Living Legend Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: VA Age: 43 Posts: 17,620	and if we win you'll eat the crow?>

09-22-2004, 01:34 AM	#10
bedlamVR Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 389	I think one of the key things here in Mattys origional post is that it wasn't down to Ramsey alone recivers dropped balls/didn't finish routes etc. When he came into the game at 20-7 his only option was to try and win the game had he done nothing not thrown and interception and not turn the ball over yet the scoreline stayed the same would that have been better? At least with him in the game we had a chance . As for the comment about every QB has to learn a new system every year you will find the sucessful teams are the ones whe the OC and offensive philosophy stay the same. Sure the Vikes offence for example will have new wrinkles in it every year, but with the same coach and philosophy these wrinkles will be minor changes building on what was working last year. Players have confidence in a winning system and execute it far better. When you undergo such dramatic change in personel as the Skins did this year then it is like starting afresh. Many people point at the changes the Giants underwent this year also yet they really didn't win this game as opposed the the Skins loosing it. Sure players have training camp to get the fundementals of any new system down but until you get into the season and against live fire it is hard for any players to translate it into game play .

09-22-2004, 03:46 AM	#12
RedskinPete The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Camino,Ca Posts: 1,174	Ramsey has a long way to go. Under Gibbs he could be a very good QB. Burnell if younger would also be what we need . But he is not. His arm is weak and is moving down not up. What we need from him is to teach Ramsey! I remember another Redskin QB that looked so bad the fans wanted to run him out of town. He worked out fine Joe T!!!! So I hope Ramsey makes it because if not Burnell will not make it all the way through a season and we will need to look for someone else next year!

09-22-2004, 05:13 AM	#13
BleedBurgundy Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 4,471	Maybe I'm just a hopeful Patrick Ramsey Apologist ass, but- When Ramsey came in the game for an already injured Brunell (ok, who had week two in the pool?) I felt like he gave our offense a chance to win, (something I haven't gotten from Brunell.) I think that when Brunell was brought in, it was as a veteran QB who would not LOSE games for us. No one expected him to come in here and light it up. But, if not for stellar play from our defense in week one, you have to say Brunell gave it his best shot at losing us that game by fumbling near our endzone. I just don't see him being able to put the team on his back and win any for us. His whole value is based upon experience and decision making and I don't believe that with what we've seen from both QB's so far that you can give a decided advantage to either in the decision making phase of the game. As for PR, 3 picks when you're forcing the ball to try and win as the clock ticks down? Give me a break, yeah it's not great, but what do you expect, that's the time of the game when you have to gamble to win. I was just as dumbstruck by that last INT as ya'll were, but I understood the first two. Bottom line, Ramsey has physical skills Brunell doesn't. Brunell has experience that PR lacks. But if we don't see the benefit of that experience on Sundays, what good does it do? Anyway, we played a 100% awful game on offense. Period. If we had lucked out, scored and won, would you all feel a lot better? I don't know about you, but I was screaming at my tv during that game. I'm not down on this team, but sometimes a good ass beating isn't the worst thing for a team to get, better than a cheap win that over inflates the collective ego.

Second look at Ramsey

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