Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jdlea

Yeah, that is a really good point. I don't think there were too many players on ND's offense, Quinn and Ryan Harris excluded, that I would want on my NFL team. I'm a ND fan, but I didn't think they had a ton of talent on that team

My personal opinion of Ryan Harris isn't even that high. I didn't think he had a very good senior season at all.

I don't think there was any position that ND was better at in 2006 than they were in 2005. They stupidly benched their best CB last year, All their LBs graduated and they were playing converted LBs all year, the DL stayed consistenly dominant, the OL regressed, and the offensive skill positions pretty much all maxed out their college potential in 2005.

Which brings me back to Quinn. Quinn reached the summit of the college game back in 2005. As in theres no way he could have been more dominant as a senior. The stats show he regressed a tiny bit, but I believe thats nothing but variance over a 13 game sample. I see Quinn as a constant from 2005 to 2006, and I would go as far as challenging the credentials of a scout who didn't see it this way.

The nature of college football is that many, many Quarterbacks will reach the games highest point every year. So how do you seperate the busts from the NFL prospects? Theres a simple theory I have to do so. I believe that in every QBs college progression, they will have a point at which they will max out (production wise), due to limitations of their own teammates, coaches, opponents, whatever. They can't get any more productive at the college game, because the people around them will not allow it. As the saying goes, "you're only good as your weakest link".

Scouts tend to see this as a red flag if a guy stops improving. But its my fundamental belief that the quarterback really is still improving all along, he just can no longer produce at a higher college level. He is however, bettering himself as an NFL prospect all the while.

So while JaMarcus Russell and Troy Smith had great final seasons in college, how can we be sure they ever reached the pinnical of the game? What if the talent around them at LSU and OSU respectively had allowed their games to reach so much higher than they had achieved, but due to Smith's graduation, and Russell's choice to leave school, a scout has no idea how this will translate to the NFL.

While its possible that Russell did plateou at his peak production last year, its unfair to ask a scout to be sure of this. It's hard to really quantify how much talent he had at LSU, so the correct scouting move is to leave Russell as an incomplete (and not use the first pick in the draft on an incomplete raw talent )

Smith is not a prospect for many of the same reasons. We don't know how much better he would have gotten with another year in college, nor do we know how good the 2006 OSU QB was supposed to be.

sf69, you may now completely dismiss this as garbage so you dont have to reply, and Matty...happy to oblige.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

My personal opinion of Ryan Harris isn't even that high. I didn't think he had a very good senior season at all.

I don't think there was any position that ND was better at in 2006 than they were in 2005. They stupidly benched their best CB last year, All their LBs graduated and they were playing converted LBs all year, the DL stayed consistently dominant, the OL regressed, and the offensive skill positions pretty much all maxed out their college potential in 2005.

Which brings me back to Quinn. Quinn reached the summit of the college game back in 2005. As in there's no way he could have been more dominant as a senior. The stats show he regressed a tiny bit, but I believe that's nothing but variance over a 13 game sample. I see Quinn as a constant from 2005 to 2006, and I would go as far as challenging the credentials of a scout who didn't see it this way.

The nature of college football is that many, many Quarterbacks will reach the games highest point every year. So how do you separate the busts from the NFL prospects? There's a simple theory I have to do so. I believe that in every QBs college progression, they will have a point at which they will max out (production wise), due to limitations of their own teammates, coaches, opponents, whatever. They can't get any more productive at the college game, because the people around them will not allow it. As the saying goes, "you're only good as your weakest link".

Scouts tend to see this as a red flag if a guy stops improving. But its my fundamental belief that the quarterback really is still improving all along, he just can no longer produce at a higher college level. He is however, bettering himself as an NFL prospect all the while.

So while JaMarcus Russell and Troy Smith had great final seasons in college, how can we be sure they ever reached the pinnical of the game? What if the talent around them at LSU and OSU respectively had allowed their games to reach so much higher than they had achieved, but due to Smith's graduation, and Russell's choice to leave school, a scout has no idea how this will translate to the NFL.

While its possible that Russell did plateou at his peak production last year, its unfair to ask a scout to be sure of this. It's hard to really quantify how much talent he had at LSU, so the correct scouting move is to leave Russell as an incomplete (and not use the first pick in the draft on an incomplete raw talent )

Smith is not a prospect for many of the same reasons. We don't know how much better he would have gotten with another year in college, nor do we know how good the 2006 OSU QB was supposed to be.

sf69, you may now completely dismiss this as garbage so you don't have to reply, and Matty...happy to oblige.

What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.

That actually may have been one of your best posts ever. I think you hit on one of the biggest "knocks" on Quinn; that Quinn is as good now as he's going to get.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

That actually may have been one of your best posts ever. I think you hit on one of the biggest "knocks" on Quinn; that Quinn is as good now as he's going to get.

All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:

• Accuracy Issues

• Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think

• Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)

But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

What are you talking about?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

What are you talking about?

Name one QB who didn't get better from the day he entered the NFL and had his first practice?

Doesn't happen. All 22 old QBs improve. Every one of them in history. No matter how bad they were.

Offiss' accuation of Quinn is that hes as good as he will get...and thats simply ridiculous.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

What are you talking about?

Unrelated question for you Wilso:

If you're low expectations for Quinn aren't based on irrational hate, then what exactly are they based on? Care to clue me in? I'm almost scared to ask.

Does this have something to do with Tom Brady winning that super bowl last ye...oh...oh wait, that never happened.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Unrelated question for you Wilso:

If you're low expectations for Quinn aren't based on irrational hate, then what exactly are they based on? Care to clue me in? I'm almost scared to ask.

Does this have something to do with Tom Brady winning that super bowl last ye...oh...oh wait, that never happened.

Where did you get that irrational hate thing from in the first place GTripp? I just don't think Quinn will be very good and I will absolutely argue with you saying that all QB's improve when they reach the NFL because they don't, but I don't have the time right now. Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:

• Accuracy Issues

• Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think

• Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)

But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

That is a misleading stat about his 58%.
The last 2 years he averaged 63.4% comp. which is VERY good.
I think he has the mechanics, and the coaching to be very good. He will ressurect the Browns. (assuming they can get a contract going)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jsarno

That is a misleading stat about his 58%.
The last 2 years he averaged 63.4% comp. which is VERY good.
I think he has the mechanics, and the coaching to be very good. He will ressurect the Browns. (assuming they can get a contract going)

Career completion percentage is a good indicator of NFL success, but not the paramount one. Generally, jsarno, thats how college QB's progress. If they start 4 years, like Quinn, the completion percentage tends to increase steadily from year to year until it reaches the highest possible point for the QB of that particular college team. For Quinn, this happened to be in the 62-64% range.

You can't really just throw out those first two years; they were part of his progression as a player. Take out all other variables for a sec and just look at Quinn's numbers in a vaccuum, and it all makes total sense. Then you can put varibles like coaching back in and be like, "maybe Weis didn't have such a big effect on Quinn after all."

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Career completion percentage is a good indicator of NFL success, but not the paramount one. Generally, jsarno, thats how college QB's progress. If they start 4 years, like Quinn, the completion percentage tends to increase steadily from year to year until it reaches the highest possible point for the QB of that particular college team. For Quinn, this happened to be in the 62-64% range.

You can't really just throw out those first two years; they were part of his progression as a player. Take out all other variables for a sec and just look at Quinn's numbers in a vaccuum, and it all makes total sense. Then you can put varibles like coaching back in and be like, "maybe Weis didn't have such a big effect on Quinn after all."

Well, his last two years were off the charts good. You can't count his first 2 years as definitive proof that he won't do well. Some people just don't come into their own until the latter stages of their college career. Quinn, as freshman, was horrible. As a sophomore, he played well. Not outstanding, but well. His Junior and Senior years were atronomically good. Meaning his performance was no fluke. Sometimes it just takes someone, or something to put it all together for you.
The man had 72 total td's vs only 14 int's in his last two years. He has the size and brains to be successful in the NFL.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:

• Accuracy Issues

• Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think

• Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)

But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

Well...Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, some would even say David Carr and Joey Harrington.

But anyway, don't think we're not picking up on your subtle insults at everyone who disagrees with you

"Anyone with half a brain knows that Brady Quinn is Zeus in cleats. If you don't see that you're just a moron"

People are entitled to disagree with you that Quinn is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's no need to keep dropping the "well then you must be stupid" defense.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well...Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, some would even say David Carr and Joey Harrington.

But anyway, don't think we're not picking up on your subtle insults at everyone who disagrees with you

"Anyone with half a brain knows that Brady Quinn is Zeus in cleats. If you don't see that you're just a moron"

People are entitled to disagree with you that Quinn is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's no need to keep dropping the "well then you must be stupid" defense.

See, as bad as they Ware and Wuerffel were, they certainly and clearly improved from their rookie seasons.

Andre Ware statistics - pro-football-reference.com
Danny Wuerffel statistics - pro-football-reference.com


And just for good measure, Carr and Harrington with very clear improvement:

Joey Harrington statistics - pro-football-reference.com
David Carr statistics - pro-football-reference.com


No need to get testy towards me Smoot, I'm pretty testy right now as is. Don't worry about me, I can keep myself under control.

I will however, continue to ask people to defend their own opinions if they choose to post them on a discussion board designed for the knowledgeable fans.

And I would never, ever call someone stupid no matter how ignorant their knowledge of football may seem. At the end of the day, we are still only discussing a game...and its importance will pale in comparison to many things I myself am ignorant about.

We're all here because we enjoy being here, and I promise not to ruin it for anyone, so long as they agree to defend their own opinions.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by offiss

What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.

You either didn't read half my post, didn't understand it, didn't care to interpret it or whatever, because there's really no "other side" to my theory as its presented. I wasn't talking about hype at all. I don't pay it any heed. I ignore hype.

If my theory is really incorrect, and Quinn did stop improving, how would you describe the reasoning for this? "Just because" doesn't fly with me, and you know it. Quinn was 22 last year, and you're accusation is that he stopped improving...well QBs tend to peak at 31 or 32. So to make such an accusation, you must really know something the rest of us don't.