Is Brady Quinn Being Selfish By Holding Out?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by offiss

What you fail to realize is the other side of that argument, with Quinn in many scouts opinion's was made to look much better than he was because of what he had around him, he had maybe the best offensive mind in college football coaching him, playing a lot of inferior teams, do you really believe that a kid from a program like ND, with the college and pro hype machine working 24-7 to promote him was overlooked in the draft? Come on, the guy looks way to mechanical, he's not a natural talent at the QB position, that is why with the QB being such a premium position he fell all the way to the #22 pick, it was no mistake.

The nature of college football is that superior talent can make you look far better than you really are at QB. Troy Smith, all you need to know about him is to look at the national champ. game, he was under throwing receiver after receiver, he is no NFL QB. He was surrounded with superior talent all season and that's that for Smith.

I also think you are under the delusion that scouts don't have the ability to evaluate whether or not a QB is a product of the system, or has the system held him back? It's not that difficult to break that down, whether or not that projection actually cultivates into an NFL QB still remains to be seen considering most fail regardless.

If he was red flagged it wasnt because of his numbers, it was because they saw no improvement in Quinn himself as a QB.

See to evaluate a QB you can't look at numbers, what you have to do is see if he makes the right reads but doesn't have the talent around him to allow success, from WR's not getting open, to O-lines not giving him any time, and is he accurate when he does have time and a WR open? Obviously Quinn didn't show nearly enough to impress most scouts.

That actually may have been one of your best posts ever. I think you hit on one of the biggest "knocks" on Quinn; that Quinn is as good now as he's going to get.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

That actually may have been one of your best posts ever. I think you hit on one of the biggest "knocks" on Quinn; that Quinn is as good now as he's going to get.

All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:

• Accuracy Issues

• Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think

• Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)

But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

What are you talking about?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

What are you talking about?

Name one QB who didn't get better from the day he entered the NFL and had his first practice?

Doesn't happen. All 22 old QBs improve. Every one of them in history. No matter how bad they were.

Offiss' accuation of Quinn is that hes as good as he will get...and thats simply ridiculous.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

What are you talking about?

Unrelated question for you Wilso:

If you're low expectations for Quinn aren't based on irrational hate, then what exactly are they based on? Care to clue me in? I'm almost scared to ask.

Does this have something to do with Tom Brady winning that super bowl last ye...oh...oh wait, that never happened.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Unrelated question for you Wilso:

If you're low expectations for Quinn aren't based on irrational hate, then what exactly are they based on? Care to clue me in? I'm almost scared to ask.

Does this have something to do with Tom Brady winning that super bowl last ye...oh...oh wait, that never happened.

Where did you get that irrational hate thing from in the first place GTripp? I just don't think Quinn will be very good and I will absolutely argue with you saying that all QB's improve when they reach the NFL because they don't, but I don't have the time right now. Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Where did you get that irrational hate thing from in the first place GTripp? I just don't think Quinn will be very good and I will absolutely argue with you saying that all QB's improve when they reach the NFL because they don't, but I don't have the time right now. Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.

I (probably incorrectly) assumed that you had irrational hate for Quinn. If I was wrong on that, my apologies. However, you've yet again failed to defend your opinions on all accounts here.

You've just disagreed with three fundamental NFL beliefs of mine at once, and provided no evidence for me to chew on whatsoever: That experienced college QBs make the best NFL prospects, that all QBs improve with NFL experience, and that Tom Brady is somehow better than Peyton Manning.

If you ever care to win my respect through argument, you know where to find me...

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

You've just disagreed with three fundamental NFL beliefs of mine at once, and provided no evidence for me to chew on whatsoever: That experienced college QBs make the best NFL prospects, that all QBs improve with NFL experience, and that Tom Brady is somehow better than Peyton Manning.

If you ever care to win my respect through argument, you know where to find me...

We spent 500 posts doing the Brady V. Manning thing so that's no good. I think you are right that experienced college QB's make the best prospects. Never said otherwise.

Now to the last point that all QB's improve upon arriving in the NFL. I'm not going to use stats and I know this might offend your sensibilities, but I just don't see how this idea that ALL qb's improve can be gauged by use of stats. I would say that reaching the NFL can easily become the apex of a quarterbacks career in terms of growth and development. Many quarterbacks do not improve at all upon reaching the professional level. Instead they are short circuited by the transition to the pro ranks. The complex schemes on both sides of the ball change the whole dynamic in which a young signal caller sees the football field. You are learning a new language. You have intense pressure coming from the fact that the speed of the game is far greater than anything you have ever experienced and of course you are now trying to make a living as an athlete. Many many many quarterbacks can not handle it. They step on the field as a pro and they know. I am not a pro quarterback. I want my mommy. They never make it back. It is an immediate regression in their growth and development and it happens all the time. You say ALL Qb's improve. I say the don't.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

Oh yeah. Brady is still better than Manning.

LOL.
HAHAHAHA.
You must be a comedian. Manning might be the best QB that has ever walked. His intelligence is far beyond any QB of today or yesterday.
Brady isn't fit to carry Manning's jock.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jsarno

LOL.
HAHAHAHA.
You must be a comedian. Manning might be the best QB that has ever walked. His intelligence is far beyond any QB of today or yesterday.
Brady isn't fit to carry Manning's jock.

Agree, but good luck getting him to defend himself.

If you squeeze hard enough, you might get "Three Rings", but only if you are lucky. :tongue

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:

• Accuracy Issues

• Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think

• Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)

But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

That is a misleading stat about his 58%.
The last 2 years he averaged 63.4% comp. which is VERY good.
I think he has the mechanics, and the coaching to be very good. He will ressurect the Browns. (assuming they can get a contract going)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jsarno

That is a misleading stat about his 58%.
The last 2 years he averaged 63.4% comp. which is VERY good.
I think he has the mechanics, and the coaching to be very good. He will ressurect the Browns. (assuming they can get a contract going)

Career completion percentage is a good indicator of NFL success, but not the paramount one. Generally, jsarno, thats how college QB's progress. If they start 4 years, like Quinn, the completion percentage tends to increase steadily from year to year until it reaches the highest possible point for the QB of that particular college team. For Quinn, this happened to be in the 62-64% range.

You can't really just throw out those first two years; they were part of his progression as a player. Take out all other variables for a sec and just look at Quinn's numbers in a vaccuum, and it all makes total sense. Then you can put varibles like coaching back in and be like, "maybe Weis didn't have such a big effect on Quinn after all."

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Career completion percentage is a good indicator of NFL success, but not the paramount one. Generally, jsarno, thats how college QB's progress. If they start 4 years, like Quinn, the completion percentage tends to increase steadily from year to year until it reaches the highest possible point for the QB of that particular college team. For Quinn, this happened to be in the 62-64% range.

You can't really just throw out those first two years; they were part of his progression as a player. Take out all other variables for a sec and just look at Quinn's numbers in a vaccuum, and it all makes total sense. Then you can put varibles like coaching back in and be like, "maybe Weis didn't have such a big effect on Quinn after all."

Well, his last two years were off the charts good. You can't count his first 2 years as definitive proof that he won't do well. Some people just don't come into their own until the latter stages of their college career. Quinn, as freshman, was horrible. As a sophomore, he played well. Not outstanding, but well. His Junior and Senior years were atronomically good. Meaning his performance was no fluke. Sometimes it just takes someone, or something to put it all together for you.
The man had 72 total td's vs only 14 int's in his last two years. He has the size and brains to be successful in the NFL.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

All I'm going to say is that no one who knows anything thinks that knock is realistic. All QBs improve from day one in the NFL. Quinn will be no different.

Some legit knocks on Quinn:

• Accuracy Issues

• Only completed 58% for career at ND--much lower than you would think

• Gets more inaccurate when the pressure comes (although every QB suffers from this)

But people who honestly think (and I really doubt offiss believes this...hes simply been around football too long), that Quinn will not ever get better in the NFL..I mean, wow, that would pretty much get you laughed out of any room.

Well...Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, some would even say David Carr and Joey Harrington.

But anyway, don't think we're not picking up on your subtle insults at everyone who disagrees with you

"Anyone with half a brain knows that Brady Quinn is Zeus in cleats. If you don't see that you're just a moron"

People are entitled to disagree with you that Quinn is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's no need to keep dropping the "well then you must be stupid" defense.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well...Andre Ware, Danny Wuerffel, some would even say David Carr and Joey Harrington.

But anyway, don't think we're not picking up on your subtle insults at everyone who disagrees with you

"Anyone with half a brain knows that Brady Quinn is Zeus in cleats. If you don't see that you're just a moron"

People are entitled to disagree with you that Quinn is going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's no need to keep dropping the "well then you must be stupid" defense.

See, as bad as they Ware and Wuerffel were, they certainly and clearly improved from their rookie seasons.

Andre Ware statistics - pro-football-reference.com
Danny Wuerffel statistics - pro-football-reference.com


And just for good measure, Carr and Harrington with very clear improvement:

Joey Harrington statistics - pro-football-reference.com
David Carr statistics - pro-football-reference.com


No need to get testy towards me Smoot, I'm pretty testy right now as is. Don't worry about me, I can keep myself under control.

I will however, continue to ask people to defend their own opinions if they choose to post them on a discussion board designed for the knowledgeable fans.

And I would never, ever call someone stupid no matter how ignorant their knowledge of football may seem. At the end of the day, we are still only discussing a game...and its importance will pale in comparison to many things I myself am ignorant about.

We're all here because we enjoy being here, and I promise not to ruin it for anyone, so long as they agree to defend their own opinions.