RI: Collins is the no. 2

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by offiss

Why would you bring up QB's beyond Gibbs tenure which is what my statement was about? You stated pretty clear that we have drafted 2 QB's, we gave up a whole lot to get Campbell and 3 seasons later he's finally getting his chance, and the only other 1 we drafted was Palmer

Your original quote was:

Originally Posted by offiss

We should have addressed it in the draft a long time ago, as the great evaluator Bobby Beathard used to do, if Gibbs had the fore sight we could have been developing a backup for the last 2 years who would be ready to step in if Campbell went down, perhaps he wouldn't be great, but he could be adequate, as well he could also bring trade value down the road.

What is a long time ago? In 2004, the first year of Gibbs' second tenure? That Year we had Hamdan and Ramsey on the squad and had just aquired Brunnell. We should have drafted another QB? Then, in 2005 and as you suggest,HE DRAFTS A QB. We should've drafted two? The developmental QB on the squad turned out to be Ramsey who netted us a sixth rounder. (Not bad bargain for a third stringer - essentially the Jets paid the going rate for what is now a short term starter (T. Green)).

So in 2005 with two young QB's and Brunnell we should've drafted another? Makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by offiss

and again you continue to praise Gibbs and his ability to assess QB's and then blast Palmer for being absolutely horrible. So in other words Gibbs has drafted 1 QB other than Campbell and that's Palmer and the guy is a joke. He has taken no concern to develop depth at the QB position as I stated in 4 years, Palmer is the 1 player and shouldn't be on the practice squad.

Palmer is the one player??? NO Palmer is the SECOND player, the FIRST was Campbell. (Dear God can you be more obtuse?). And while your right, Campbell hasn't proven anything - He has better press than Ramsey did at this stage and seems to be progressing well (something Ramsey never did and still hasn't done- progress). So in 4 years, it appears that Gibbs hit on one of his two QB choices. Well above league average.

Originally Posted by offiss

Funny thing about those QB's he won those SB's with, he didn't draft 1 of them, he also wanted to get rid of Theisman when he arrived in DC as well, so as far as I am concerned Gibbs has NEVER proved himself a personnel guy.

I have never argued that Gibbs is a great "personnel guy". I think he can recognize and coach talent. Would I have made the same choices he has made in his second tenure here - probably not. And, although he may have intially wanted to get rid of Theisman - he didn't and he easily could have if he had been truly unhappy with his play. Theisman gained Gibbs confidence and Gibbs returned Theisman's work with loyalty - even when the fans were calling for Schroeder. And though he didn't draft D. Williams, Gibbs was the driving force in getting him into DC and chose him over Schroeder when push came to shove.

Originally Posted by offiss

yea Gibbs can evaluate talent, take 1 look at Brunell and the deal he made to get him, the Jags saw him coming a mile away.

Undoubtedly, Gibbs overpaid for Brunnell - but at the time we were not the only suitor for his services. Certainly Miami was interested in him. IMO, Gibbs knows he overpaid and would like to have another shot at the deal. (He made a comment later in the year that there was a learning curve on player aquisition in the FA period and he would like to do some things differently).

Originally Posted by offiss

the fact is Brunell has been a joke since his arrival and Gibbs still can't cut the cord with a washed up QB who if he has to play is lucky to break a 100 yards passing if he completed 50 passesAgain there is no reason to keep a player who has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can't get the job done, get a youngster in there with less experience and a lot of fire what harm could it possibly bring? And we may just get lucky and find a diamond in the ruff, but to continue with the likes of Brunell and Collins is a big waste of time.

I am not gonna get into the Brunnell Bashing fight with you. Hate all you want, it just demonstrates the true basis of your position. As for "getting a youngster in", we did three - Palmer, Bramlett and the Maryland QB (I forget his name). None of them were NFL quality (as demonstrated by the lack of interest from other teams). We may get lucky and find someone - but it wasn't anybody we looked at this year. We will probably try again next year. Goes on all over the league. Keeping both Brunnell and Collins doesn't seem like the brightest thing in the world to me either. BUT - I am not aware of the cap ramifications of cutting Brunnell and that may be playing into it.

Originally Posted by offiss

If you want experience at the backup position you got it, experienced losers!

While I am not certain, I believe Brunnell's lifetime win percentage is pretty much on the plus side.

Originally Posted by offiss

Your assessment of Beathard is so absurd it's comical, he drafted 6 QB's with the skins, 2 of them led their teams to the SB, and the other led his team to the NFC championship game, I would say that's phenomenal results considering not 1 of them was picked before the third rd.

Yes it's hard to evaluate a QB from college to the NFL, that is why you have to take more than 1 shot at doing so for the backup QB position ala BB.

And by the way the verdict is still way out on whether or not Campbell can play in this league, he's proven nothing.

Why are you picking a fight where we don't disagree? Beathard had a phenomenal record - I would imagine that it is close to unmatched (perhaps Ron Wolfe).

As for taking "more than 1 shot", Beathard did not pick a QB until his third year with the Skins and then chose six in eight years (Oh wait, that's what the Skins have done in the last eight years). Again I again point out that Gibbs has picked two QB's in four years.

The Skins record on QB picks in the last eight years is, again, about average maybe better, 1 in six was a bonified starter (or appears to be) and two back ups that have moved on to other teams (Rosenfels, Ramsey).

And while the verdict IS still out on Campbell. I will bet you $100.00 that, barring injury, he puts together a better season than Ramsey ever had for any of his three teams.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Your original quote was:



What is a long time ago? In 2004, the first year of Gibbs' second tenure? That Year we had Hamdan and Ramsey on the squad and had just aquired Brunnell. We should have drafted another QB? Then, in 2005 and as you suggest,HE DRAFTS A QB. We should've drafted two? The developmental QB on the squad turned out to be Ramsey who netted us a sixth rounder. (Not bad bargain for a third stringer - essentially the Jets paid the going rate for what is now a short term starter (T. Green)).

So in 2005 with two young QB's and Brunnell we should've drafted another? Makes sense to me.



Palmer is the one player??? NO Palmer is the SECOND player, the FIRST was Campbell. (Dear God can you be more obtuse?). And while your right, Campbell hasn't proven anything - He has better press than Ramsey did at this stage and seems to be progressing well (something Ramsey never did and still hasn't done- progress). So in 4 years, it appears that Gibbs hit on one of his two QB choices. Well above league average.



I have never argued that Gibbs is a great "personnel guy". I think he can recognize and coach talent. Would I have made the same choices he has made in his second tenure here - probably not. And, although he may have intially wanted to get rid of Theisman - he didn't and he easily could have if he had been truly unhappy with his play. Theisman gained Gibbs confidence and Gibbs returned Theisman's work with loyalty - even when the fans were calling for Schroeder. And though he didn't draft D. Williams, Gibbs was the driving force in getting him into DC and chose him over Schroeder when push came to shove.



Undoubtedly, Gibbs overpaid for Brunnell - but at the time we were not the only suitor for his services. Certainly Miami was interested in him. IMO, Gibbs knows he overpaid and would like to have another shot at the deal. (He made a comment later in the year that there was a learning curve on player aquisition in the FA period and he would like to do some things differently).



I am not gonna get into the Brunnell Bashing fight with you. Hate all you want, it just demonstrates the true basis of your position. As for "getting a youngster in", we did three - Palmer, Bramlett and the Maryland QB (I forget his name). None of them were NFL quality (as demonstrated by the lack of interest from other teams). We may get lucky and find someone - but it wasn't anybody we looked at this year. We will probably try again next year. Goes on all over the league. Keeping both Brunnell and Collins doesn't seem like the brightest thing in the world to me either. BUT - I am not aware of the cap ramifications of cutting Brunnell and that may be playing into it.




While I am not certain, I believe Brunnell's lifetime win percentage is pretty much on the plus side.



Why are you picking a fight where we don't disagree? Beathard had a phenomenal record - I would imagine that it is close to unmatched (perhaps Ron Wolfe).

As for taking "more than 1 shot", Beathard did not pick a QB until his third year with the Skins and then chose six in eight years (Oh wait, that's what the Skins have done in the last eight years). Again I again point out that Gibbs has picked two QB's in four years.

The Skins record on QB picks in the last eight years is, again, about average maybe better, 1 in six was a bonified starter (or appears to be) and two back ups that have moved on to other teams (Rosenfels, Ramsey).

And while the verdict IS still out on Campbell. I will bet you $100.00 that, barring injury, he puts together a better season than Ramsey ever had for any of his three teams.

Palmer is the one player??? NO Palmer is the SECOND player, the FIRST was Campbell. (Dear God can you be more obtuse?). And while your right, Campbell hasn't proven anything - He has better press than Ramsey did at this stage and seems to be progressing well (something Ramsey never did and still hasn't done- progress). So in 4 years, it appears that Gibbs hit on one of his two QB choices. Well above league average.

Pay attention, which I know you don't which is why we are even having the debate, Palmer is the first QB drafted by Gibbs to be a backup, Campbell was drafted to be a starter, as I said he has not brought in talent at the QB position to add depth. Please pay attention before you use fancy words like obtuse, we all have seen shawshank redemption.

It appears he's hit on Campbell eh. Ramsey's press was better than Campbells my friend that is why everyone was so shocked when Gibbs went after Brunell, it is also why Miami was offering a #2 pick in the draft for Ramsey at the time. I would like to know what Campbell has done to warrant these accolades? Other than being the only guy on the team who can actually throw a football 50 yards? Campbell has proven nothing, his only accolade is gibbs named him starter no different than when he named Brunell the starter, Campbell has a long way to go before he's a success story. Beating Brunell out for the starting job I hardly consider conquering the mountain.


You also keep bringing up pre gibbs, my contention is Gibbs has not addressed the QB depth with youth, BB didn't address it initially because we had a bonafide starter and backups, but he did address it and not with QB's who went undrafted.

I really hope Campbell is the goods because we are a long way's away from another legitimate starter.

[JoeRedskin]

I am only addressing this b/c it is the bi-week, offiss replied while I was away on vacation and because he did so in a manner that invites a reply. So here goes:

Originally Posted by offiss

Pay attention, which I know you don't which is why we are even having the debate, Palmer is the first QB drafted by Gibbs to be a backup, Campbell was drafted to be a starter, as I said he has not brought in talent at the QB position to add depth.

Please pay attention before you use fancy words like obtuse, we all have seen shawshank redemption.

As for being obtuse, I didn't realize a two syllable word was "fancy". Sorry, I'll try to be more monosyllabic for you.

As to paying attention - I have been trying but the inherent inconsistencies in your argument make it difficult. You keep moving the target:
- Gibbs drafting of Campbell while he already had two QB's with starting experience on the roster doesn't count as drafting a young developmental QB.
- The fact that Gibbs has drafted a 2 QB's in his four drafts is not sufficient even though it is a ratio roughly equivalent to BB's in his tenure.
- Gibbs is to blame b/c the QB drafted this year didn't pan out even though, historically, the drafting of QB's is a crapshoot even for the best talent evaluators. (Beathard was a great talent evaluator BUT - Ryan Leaf, 'nuff said).

I will try again with this as the assumed statement of your position: Gibbs hasn't adequately addressed the generally accepted practice of obtaining a young passer to groom as the eventual replacement for the current starter or, if the current starter is still young and performing well (a' la Farve back in the day), to trade for draft picks. Specifically, you seem to assert that Gibbs, at some point, should have acted to obtain a back-up for Campbell through the draft. It is on this last point that I think you are being wrong headed and simply ignoring the facts as to the status of our roster at the time of the relevant drafts. (there, is that a better way of putting it for you?).

Preliminarily, your assertion that "Campbell was drafted to start" is simply wrong. Campbell was not drafted to start. He was drafted to sit on the bench behind Brunnell and Ramsey. In 2005, when Brunnell went down, who came in? Not Campbell - Ramsey. Campbell was drafted to sit on the bench, learn the position and, hopefully, start someday. No one expected him to be our starter on day one, or even by the end of the year. He was the classic developmental pick. (It your assertions that Campbell wasn't a developmental pick and similar ilk that lead me make accusations of obtuseness).

Since it is the failure to draft a back-up to Campbell that seems to be your problem, the 2004 draft is simply not relevant as Campbell wasn't even on the roster. BUT, for the sake of background as to the roster status in subsequent years, we should take a look at it. In 2004, coming into a roster he barely knows, Gibbs had a young passer as the potential starter, Ramsey, and an experienced vet that he traded for, MB, and who was obtained for the purpose of being the insurance policy to the unknown that Ramsey was. In addition, the roster contains a practice squad passer in Hamdan. We had four picks (two of whom were Taylor and Cooley) and an arguably set QB roster - a "QB drafted by Gibbs to be a backup" at this point could be seen as wasteful of the limited picks considering the more pressing needs the team had at that time.

So, in 2005 Gibbs drafted a young passer to groom. Please don't try and tell me he should have drafted another in the same year? Four QB's - 3 of whom were young and two draft picks? Please tell me Mr. "Gibbs Never Gave Ramsey A Fair Shot" how THAT would have gone over with the Ramsey fanatics.

In 2006, going into the draft, Gibbs has a young QB as the planned back-up to a playoff squad, experienced QB. Further,as the young back-up has yet to start a game, Gibbs has signed another experienced QB to be the third QB - just in case. Should we have drafted a QB this year - possibly but not necessarily. As the back-ups, we had one young developmental QB and an experienced QB. Sounds like the generally accepted "best practices" scenario for QB's. Certainly, no one (to my knowledge) came out of the 2006 draft saying -"Dammit! why didn't they draft another QB".

In 2007, with the young QB now the starter and two experienced QB's apparently battling it out for the 2nd spot (pre-draft, I think it is pretty well accepted that either MB or TC was gonna stick but not both), Gibbs drafts a QB to possibly groom and develop. He doesn't pan out. As I have pointed out before, that is not an uncommon event - in fact it is a more than common event.

Thus, in his the three relevant drafts, Gibbs has drafted two developmental QB's. One a high pick who looks like a hit (but still could miss) and one low pick that went the way of the vast-majority of low round picks. Add in the various young FA's brought in and, to me (and I suppose others), Gibbs has clearly taken appropriate steps in his attempts to secure young depth at the QB position.

If it is your continued assertion that another young QB should have been drafted, when? where?

Originally Posted by offiss

It appears he's hit on Campbell eh. Ramsey's press was better than Campbells my friend that is why everyone was so shocked when Gibbs went after Brunell, it is also why Miami was offering a #2 pick in the draft for Ramsey at the time. I would like to know what Campbell has done to warrant these accolades? Other than being the only guy on the team who can actually throw a football 50 yards? Campbell has proven nothing, his only accolade is gibbs named him starter no different than when he named Brunell the starter, Campbell has a long way to go before he's a success story. Beating Brunell out for the starting job I hardly consider conquering the mountain.

How fast do you think it would take the phone to ring if we let it be known JC could be had straight up for a number 2? The line would burn up. Just off the top of my head - TBay, Atlanta, KC, Chicago. Even if we upped the price to a No. 1, wanna bet we would get serious offers? And, just to be clear, you don't think the talking heads would've been roasting us if we had signed Leftwich or Culpepper?

I agree that Campbell has yet to be a success story - but I am betting he makes it and, IMO, as a former Ramsey backer, he is showing more than Ramsey did. Not by a lot just yet but he is certainly more mobile and seems to me (again just my opinion) to have a much better feel for the pocket than Ramsey ever did. Even Jaws commented on how well he seems to be looking off receivers.

Originally Posted by offiss

I really hope Campbell is the goods because we are a long way's away from another legitimate starter.

I agree, though I don't think that is to be unexpected in this day and age. The same can be said of teams with other young starters - Denver, San Francisco, Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, Tennessee, Pittsburg, Minnesota (you could even throw Green Bay in here - they are banking on Aaron Rodgers to step in next year, if he can't they got nothing).

Simply put - your assertion that Gibbs hasn't adequately sought young QB depth lacks any contextual analysis of the Redskin's roster during the relevant draft periods, the state of back-up QB's throughout the leage and/or the average success rate of drafted QB's league-wide. In addtion to lacking analytical context, you continue to assert opinions that fly in the face of the relevant facts (Campbell was drafted to start; Gibbs hasn't attempted to add young depth to the QB position).

In other words - you're being obtuse.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I am only addressing this b/c it is the bi-week, offiss replied while I was away on vacation and because he did so in a manner that invites a reply. So here goes:



As for being obtuse, I didn't realize a two syllable word was "fancy". Sorry, I'll try to be more monosyllabic for you.

As to paying attention - I have been trying but the inherent inconsistencies in your argument make it difficult. You keep moving the target:
- Gibbs drafting of Campbell while he already had two QB's with starting experience on the roster doesn't count as drafting a young developmental QB.
- The fact that Gibbs has drafted a 2 QB's in his four drafts is not sufficient even though it is a ratio roughly equivalent to BB's in his tenure.
- Gibbs is to blame b/c the QB drafted this year didn't pan out even though, historically, the drafting of QB's is a crapshoot even for the best talent evaluators. (Beathard was a great talent evaluator BUT - Ryan Leaf, 'nuff said).

I will try again with this as the assumed statement of your position: Gibbs hasn't adequately addressed the generally accepted practice of obtaining a young passer to groom as the eventual replacement for the current starter or, if the current starter is still young and performing well (a' la Farve back in the day), to trade for draft picks. Specifically, you seem to assert that Gibbs, at some point, should have acted to obtain a back-up for Campbell through the draft. It is on this last point that I think you are being wrong headed and simply ignoring the facts as to the status of our roster at the time of the relevant drafts. (there, is that a better way of putting it for you?).

Preliminarily, your assertion that "Campbell was drafted to start" is simply wrong. Campbell was not drafted to start. He was drafted to sit on the bench behind Brunnell and Ramsey. In 2005, when Brunnell went down, who came in? Not Campbell - Ramsey. Campbell was drafted to sit on the bench, learn the position and, hopefully, start someday. No one expected him to be our starter on day one, or even by the end of the year. He was the classic developmental pick. (It your assertions that Campbell wasn't a developmental pick and similar ilk that lead me make accusations of obtuseness).

Since it is the failure to draft a back-up to Campbell that seems to be your problem, the 2004 draft is simply not relevant as Campbell wasn't even on the roster. BUT, for the sake of background as to the roster status in subsequent years, we should take a look at it. In 2004, coming into a roster he barely knows, Gibbs had a young passer as the potential starter, Ramsey, and an experienced vet that he traded for, MB, and who was obtained for the purpose of being the insurance policy to the unknown that Ramsey was. In addition, the roster contains a practice squad passer in Hamdan. We had four picks (two of whom were Taylor and Cooley) and an arguably set QB roster - a "QB drafted by Gibbs to be a backup" at this point could be seen as wasteful of the limited picks considering the more pressing needs the team had at that time.

So, in 2005 Gibbs drafted a young passer to groom. Please don't try and tell me he should have drafted another in the same year? Four QB's - 3 of whom were young and two draft picks? Please tell me Mr. "Gibbs Never Gave Ramsey A Fair Shot" how THAT would have gone over with the Ramsey fanatics.

In 2006, going into the draft, Gibbs has a young QB as the planned back-up to a playoff squad, experienced QB. Further,as the young back-up has yet to start a game, Gibbs has signed another experienced QB to be the third QB - just in case. Should we have drafted a QB this year - possibly but not necessarily. As the back-ups, we had one young developmental QB and an experienced QB. Sounds like the generally accepted "best practices" scenario for QB's. Certainly, no one (to my knowledge) came out of the 2006 draft saying -"Dammit! why didn't they draft another QB".

In 2007, with the young QB now the starter and two experienced QB's apparently battling it out for the 2nd spot (pre-draft, I think it is pretty well accepted that either MB or TC was gonna stick but not both), Gibbs drafts a QB to possibly groom and develop. He doesn't pan out. As I have pointed out before, that is not an uncommon event - in fact it is a more than common event.

Thus, in his the three relevant drafts, Gibbs has drafted two developmental QB's. One a high pick who looks like a hit (but still could miss) and one low pick that went the way of the vast-majority of low round picks. Add in the various young FA's brought in and, to me (and I suppose others), Gibbs has clearly taken appropriate steps in his attempts to secure young depth at the QB position.

If it is your continued assertion that another young QB should have been drafted, when? where?



How fast do you think it would take the phone to ring if we let it be known JC could be had straight up for a number 2? The line would burn up. Just off the top of my head - TBay, Atlanta, KC, Chicago. Even if we upped the price to a No. 1, wanna bet we would get serious offers? And, just to be clear, you don't think the talking heads would've been roasting us if we had signed Leftwich or Culpepper?

I agree that Campbell has yet to be a success story - but I am betting he makes it and, IMO, as a former Ramsey backer, he is showing more than Ramsey did. Not by a lot just yet but he is certainly more mobile and seems to me (again just my opinion) to have a much better feel for the pocket than Ramsey ever did. Even Jaws commented on how well he seems to be looking off receivers.



I agree, though I don't think that is to be unexpected in this day and age. The same can be said of teams with other young starters - Denver, San Francisco, Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, Tennessee, Pittsburg, Minnesota (you could even throw Green Bay in here - they are banking on Aaron Rodgers to step in next year, if he can't they got nothing).

Simply put - your assertion that Gibbs hasn't adequately sought young QB depth lacks any contextual analysis of the Redskin's roster during the relevant draft periods, the state of back-up QB's throughout the leage and/or the average success rate of drafted QB's league-wide. In addtion to lacking analytical context, you continue to assert opinions that fly in the face of the relevant facts (Campbell was drafted to start; Gibbs hasn't attempted to add young depth to the QB position).

In other words - you're being obtuse.

You made the statement that JC does a good job looking off WR's. To me thats is his biggest problem right now that he is starring them down. I was at the Giants game and he missed allot of wide open WR's and when I got a chance to watch the game on NFL Replay I watch and he seemed to be starring them down. He is young but the coaches need to get him out of that habbit or maybe the coaches told him to do that this past Sunday.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You made the statement that JC does a good job looking off WR's. To me thats is his biggest problem right now that he is starring them down. I was at the Giants game and he missed allot of wide open WR's and when I got a chance to watch the game on NFL Replay I watch and he seemed to be starring them down. He is young but the coaches need to get him out of that habbit or maybe the coaches told him to do that this past Sunday.

I agree. My comment was based on a couple of comments by Jaws during the Monday night game. Initially, Jaws said that JC had a bad habit of staring down receivers. Later, during the telecast and using some of his "announcer toys", he demonstrated how JC was, in fact, looking safeties off.

I have heard from various talking heads that JC has a habit of staring guys down. Also, according to your statement, he may not be seeing the field all that well. I am trying to watch for these things myself to see if there is any improvement.

Certainly, if we are making the same comments next year, we may be looking at a Ramsey redux, and that would be a baaaad thing.

[SmootSmack]

Nice post JoeRedskin...but um, when did we stop referring to it as the "bye week" and start referring to it as the "bi-week"

Something you're not telling us