Vince Young overrated?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

FACT #2 is we are different when it comes to sports. I played a ton of sports during my life time. I played this game to win, not to be #1 in the stats department. By the way you cling to stats as the end all of fact, you might be more of a sports fan than an actual player. Stats are very misleading.

Not really sure what you're getting at here, I know you weren't talking to me with this comment, but it could easily apply to me. If you followed the threads you would know that I was a QB in college, and played several sports at a high level.
Honestly, all the people that ride VY's jock gets frustrating cause he's the worst QB in the league that has a solid starting job. He didn't deserve the ROY last year, but SEVERAL people here think he's amazing, and he's not. Stats don't always show everything, you're right, but in this case, it is proving a very good point.
Last year he played in 15 games and his team went 8-7 in those games. It's not like he beat amazing opponants either (something the "stats" don't show). He beat the Skins, Bills, Texans twice, Jags, Giants, Eagles, and Colts. They had a combined record of 62-66. This year, they have beat the Jags, Saints and Falcons who have a combined record of 6-9. Again I must say, they would have lost to the Jags had it not been for an injury to Scobee and not being able to kick the field goal in the red zone TWICE. But still...the past two seasons, their wins came from teams that have a combined 68-75 record. Not very impressive. People say "count the important stats...count the wins." OK, they won't make the playoffs this year with a GREAT D, (if VY plays anyway) and they didn't make the playoffs last year. People here dismiss Marino as the one of the best because he never won the big one, well Vince hasn't even made the playoffs.
I know he's only in his second season, and if you look at his stats, you have to recognize that there aren't many QB's (if any) that have worse stats than he does. Can VY become a good QB...sure...if he learns (like McNabb for instance) that being a pocket passer is what it's all about and use your legs as a last resort. (like Campbell and Steve Young later in his career as well) Right now he's on a horrible path. His passing skills are some of the worst, if not overall worst in all the league, yet people still talk about him like he's a top 5 QB. That's wrong. He's a bottom 5 QB at best, and will do so until he feels like proving otherwise.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Not really sure what you're getting at here, I know you weren't talking to me with this comment, but it could easily apply to me. If you followed the threads you would know that I was a QB in college, and played several sports at a high level.
Honestly, all the people that ride VY's jock gets frustrating cause he's the worst QB in the league that has a solid starting job. He didn't deserve the ROY last year, but SEVERAL people here think he's amazing, and he's not. Stats don't always show everything, you're right, but in this case, it is proving a very good point.
Last year he played in 15 games and his team went 8-7 in those games. It's not like he beat amazing opponants either (something the "stats" don't show). He beat the Skins, Bills, Texans twice, Jags, Giants, Eagles, and Colts. They had a combined record of 62-66. This year, they have beat the Jags, Saints and Falcons who have a combined record of 6-9. Again I must say, they would have lost to the Jags had it not been for an injury to Scobee and not being able to kick the field goal in the red zone TWICE. But still...the past two seasons, their wins came from teams that have a combined 68-75 record. Not very impressive. People say "count the important stats...count the wins." OK, they won't make the playoffs this year with a GREAT D, (if VY plays anyway) and they didn't make the playoffs last year. People here dismiss Marino as the one of the best because he never won the big one, well Vince hasn't even made the playoffs.
I know he's only in his second season, and if you look at his stats, you have to recognize that there aren't many QB's (if any) that have worse stats than he does. Can VY become a good QB...sure...if he learns (like McNabb for instance) that being a pocket passer is what it's all about and use your legs as a last resort. (like Campbell and Steve Young later in his career as well) Right now he's on a horrible path. His passing skills are some of the worst, if not overall worst in all the league, yet people still talk about him like he's a top 5 QB. That's wrong. He's a bottom 5 QB at best, and will do so until he feels like proving otherwise.

Jsarno I respect your opinion on VY. He needs to get better. No question about it. The media does hype him up a bit. But part of that is what he did in college and part of that is what he did with a below average NFL offense last year.

But here is my problem. I can't stand it when people say that he played against bad teams. That the teams he played had a losing record. Sorry but that's a bunch of BS. I have news for you. It's the NFL. Anyone can beat anyone and that's why it's such a great league. NO sucks this year and beat Seattle at home. Buff should have beaten Dallas last week w/ a rookie QB. That's the NFL.

The Texans had a good defense for most of last year. The Colts, Eagles and Giants were all playoff teams. They beat us at home. The Titans beat all those teams. Any win on the road with a rookie Qb is impressive. That is a tough thing to do in the NFL. So how about giving the guy a little credit for that. And saying things like the only reason they beat the Jags is because the kicker got hurt is just silly. It's almost like your trying to find reasons to prove your point.

[TheBigD]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Last year he played in 15 games and his team went 8-7 in those games. It's not like he beat amazing opponants either (something the "stats" don't show). He beat the Skins, Bills, Texans twice, Jags, Giants, Eagles, and Colts.

Are you serious? It is no wonder you left the Colts to be the last team in the list. You are right, who did they beat? Only the champs from last year. What I thought was a good sign for the Titans and their fans is the fact that the game he won against the Colt, Giants, and Texans, they were down and he led GW drives.

I remember arguing with you in that "Warner is Back" thread. You simply HATE Young, for the simple fact that he wins games and gets credit and the media likes him.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I understand that facts are for losers and emotions are wayyyy cooler and allow one to be blissfully ignorant about football, but I tend to get edgy when people ignore facts and try to make "holier than thou" arguments. Those pretty much suck.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

On a different note, I tried to give GTripp reputation points on this post but it told me that I had to "spread it around before giving more points to GTripp."

Little did I know that apparently I have been whoring out my reputation points to GTripp far more than I originally thought.

[MTK]

c'mon not this again

[Sean Taylor]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

c'mon not this again

I know, who cares really?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Sean Taylor

I know, who cares really?

LOL...you do, or you wouldn't be here reading it. LOL.

[Sean Taylor]

Originally Posted by jsarno

LOL...you do, or you wouldn't be here reading it. LOL.

I see it keep coming up to the top of the board and wonder why. Like that commercial where he's talking about his tatoos, who fucking cares!!!

[djnemo65]

Even if he his ovverrated I'm not sure that that's such a pressing issue that it deserves its own thread every month or so.

That being said, last time I checked Tennessee was a team that lost most of the meager offensive weaponry it had last year and was supposed to regress as a result...and hasn't. You can trot out all the stats on Young you want but they'll never tell the whole story. To not understand that some guys transcend stats is to not understand sports.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Of course most of you know I am one of the few people in the world that thinks that Vince Young is just a glorified Mike Vick or Kordell Stewart, but he proved yet again that he is overrated. They needed Kerry freakin Collins to come in to tie that game up after Young went down with an injury. (although they still lost)

Yes, they are 3-2, but as I have pointed out before, they would have lost had Scobee not got hurt in week 1 vs the Jags because the Jags were in the redzone twice and couldn't kick field goals that would have won them the game. The other two wins were vs doormats in Atlanta and New Orleans.

Young in 5 games has thrown for a meezly 703 yards, 3 td's and 6 ints. He does have 129 yards and 1 td rushing. As many analysts have pointed out, it's Tennessee's D that is winning them games. Vince Young is not doing anything to help.

Looking at the stats:
He is dead last in passing yards in regards to ANY player with 5 or more starts.
He's dead last in TD passes for any player with 5 or more starts.
He's 8th worst in the entire league in int's.
He is dead last in passing yards per game for any starter playing 5 or more games.
He has the 2nd worst passer rating for starters with 5 or more starts at 68.0. (Brees is only one worse but he will pass Young soon) Young ranks 39th overall in passer rating, and there are only 32 teams. WOW.
He is on pace to throw for a pitiful 2,249 yards for the season.
He is on pace to throw for a pitiful 9 tds for the season.
He is on pace to throw for a pitiful 19 int's for the season.
2249 yards, 9 tds and 19 ints makes him the worst QB this league has seen in a while.

So how many people still think he's a great player?

Did Vince Young kick your dog or something?

The jury is still out on the guy. I don't think anyone thinks the guy is a great qb. Who said that??? He has no WR's to speak of and he still a young qb as far as total starts go. Judge the guy in his 3rd year.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Did Vince Young kick your dog or something?

The jury is still out on the guy. I don't think anyone thinks the guy is a great qb. Who said that??? He has no WR's to speak of and he still a young qb as far as total starts go. Judge the guy in his 3rd year.

I think the media as a collective believes its a done deal that he was the best QB in the 2006 draft.

My opinion is that he has a long way to go to prove he isn't the worst of the first rounders. However, with Leinart out for the year, and with Cutler having a good year, this debate will stretch well beyond this year.

I think there's definately some positives about him that we never saw in Stewart or Vick, and I think that's a bad comparison on Jsarno's part. The point is that VY was the 3rd overall pick, and 1st QB off the board...and he just hasn't thrown the ball very well yet. He's making good strides in completion percentage this year, and thats a start, but his Y/A is awful.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think the media as a collective believes its a done deal that he was the best QB in the 2006 draft.

My opinion is that he has a long way to go to prove he isn't the worst of the first rounders. However, with Leinart out for the year, and with Cutler having a good year, this debate will stretch well beyond this year.

I think there's definately some positives about him that we never saw in Stewart or Vick, and I think that's a bad comparison on Jsarno's part. The point is that VY was the 3rd overall pick, and 1st QB off the board...and he just hasn't thrown the ball very well yet. He's making good strides in completion percentage this year, and thats a start, but his Y/A is awful.

So far Leinart has not really shown me anything. He has been average, I guess. The problem is you have a two time NFL MVP and a SB winner sitting on the bench. Plus Warner has outplayed Leinart. On top of that you have a coach and an organization that wants to win now. All those things are going against Leinart and the other QB's in his class do not have to deal with that.

From what I have seen from Cutler and Young is they are up and down just like most young QB's are. Time will tell which of the three become a great NFL QB. My money is on Cutler. I think he shows the most upside of the three.

[jsarno]

Gtripp...very good posts, thank you for your defense.
Rob, very good points as well.

I am actually a little surprised that there are some that see what I am talking about. Last year when I made a post about VY being overrated, I was widely outnumbered.

I think VY's smoke and mirrors are fading.

[GTripp0012]

One last thought:

The argument that Vince Young only has 6.2 Y/A this season can reinforce the opinion that Vince is not connecting on the important throws, and not finding his receivers in space any better than he was last year. It shows that he is struggling in the passing game.

The argument that he is 3-2 while doing so can only be countered by a quick: "So?!" That really doesn't say anything about VY. Neither does telling me he's a winner, or a gamer, or a baller or anything of the sort. Not that anyone is being accused of making the aforementioned arguments. Players aren't paid to win. They are paid to play good football. If players were paid to win, the players on losing teams would have to give their gamechecks back. That's not what happens. You can enjoy individual success on a team that fails. It's just not as fufilling as team accomplishment.

[saden1]

Vince Young is overrated. Tell you what though, if he actually finished that game against the Bucs there's a pretty good chance they'd be 4-2.