Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Amen to that.

My line of work (street cop) obviously dictates that I interact with a number of poor people, ranging from the homeless, people in government subsidized housing (projects) to just your run-of-the-mill poor people living in trailers or run down houses.

The interesting thing that I've noticed, to an almost overwhelming degree, is that alot of this poverty is quite honestly a choice. How do I know it's a choice? The sheer number of big screen TVs, satellite dishes and other expensive toys that you find in the projects, in low-income neigborhoods, etc. Some of the shittiest houses I've been in have huge flat screen TVs, and the number of DirecTV and DISH Network dishes hanging on the side of tax-payer subsidized housing it's just apalling.

I don't make much money as a cop, and consequently I rent an apartment and I don't even have cable TV. I made the choice to pay my bills, pay my taxes and support my wife and daughter rather than let some other hard working tax payer pick up the slack or go into debt so I can afford a luxury item.

Now I'm not arguing that 100% of the poor choose to be that way, absolutely not. I'm certain that there are people who because of circumstance simply can't get on their feet. I will say that in my experience those people are VERY few and far between.

In my interaction with the homeless I always ask them two questions: 1) Do you have a job? 2) Why not? The answer to the first is, obviously, always "no." The answer to the second is quite often "I don't want to work." They'll flat out tell you most of the time that they just don't want to work. The others will claim it's a disability of some sort.

Bringing this back to healthcare, I personally have a really hard time coughing up more of my hard earned dollars to fund healthcare for people who choose to sit on their ass and watch TV all day long while someone else pays for their needs.

I'm all for helping those who are willing to do a bit for themselves. I think a lot of people, with probably very good intentions, want universal, tax-payer funded healthcare because they're out of touch with the world. I have personally walked the projects, walked the shithole neighborhoods, talked to these people on a daily basis. I suppose all of this can be dismissed as purely anecdotal, but I put a lot more stock in my personal experiences than pure conjecture from an ivory tower. I honestly think sometimes that the people proposing half this stuff must hop in their nice car every day, drive to the office and probably don't have a clue as to what actually goes on out on the street. I don't begrudge that comfortable lifestyle one bit, but let's not pretend that they have any real feel for how most poor people really are. It's not bad intentions, just ignorance.

You are conflating the destitute with the uninsured which is a big mistake. The fact that some irresponsible poor people waste money on luxury items has nothing to do with the failures of health care in this country.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

You are conflating the destitute with the uninsured which is a big mistake. The fact that some irresponsible poor people waste money on luxury items has nothing to do with the failures of health care in this country.

I'm not mixing the two - a substantial number of the uninsured ARE destitute. I simply said that in my experience, MANY of the poor people waste money on luxury items.

If you're too poor to afford health insurance but you can manage to get a $2500 TV and $100/month for satellite TV, something seems awry. It's not the cause of the "failed" health insurance, but it's one hell of an argument against socialized medicine for the poor, funded by the tax payers.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Amen to that.

My line of work (street cop) obviously dictates that I interact with a number of poor people, ranging from the homeless, people in government subsidized housing (projects) to just your run-of-the-mill poor people living in trailers or run down houses.

The interesting thing that I've noticed, to an almost overwhelming degree, is that alot of this poverty is quite honestly a choice. How do I know it's a choice? The sheer number of big screen TVs, satellite dishes and other expensive toys that you find in the projects, in low-income neigborhoods, etc. Some of the shittiest houses I've been in have huge flat screen TVs, and the number of DirecTV and DISH Network dishes hanging on the side of tax-payer subsidized housing it's just apalling.

I don't make much money as a cop, and consequently I rent an apartment and I don't even have cable TV. I made the choice to pay my bills, pay my taxes and support my wife and daughter rather than let some other hard working tax payer pick up the slack or go into debt so I can afford a luxury item.

Now I'm not arguing that 100% of the poor choose to be that way, absolutely not. I'm certain that there are people who because of circumstance simply can't get on their feet. I will say that in my experience those people are VERY few and far between.

In my interaction with the homeless I always ask them two questions: 1) Do you have a job? 2) Why not? The answer to the first is, obviously, always "no." The answer to the second is quite often "I don't want to work." They'll flat out tell you most of the time that they just don't want to work. The others will claim it's a disability of some sort.

Bringing this back to healthcare, I personally have a really hard time coughing up more of my hard earned dollars to fund healthcare for people who choose to sit on their ass and watch TV all day long while someone else pays for their needs.

I'm all for helping those who are willing to do a bit for themselves. I think a lot of people, with probably very good intentions, want universal, tax-payer funded healthcare because they're out of touch with the world. I have personally walked the projects, walked the shithole neighborhoods, talked to these people on a daily basis. I suppose all of this can be dismissed as purely anecdotal, but I put a lot more stock in my personal experiences than pure conjecture from an ivory tower. I honestly think sometimes that the people proposing half this stuff must hop in their nice car every day, drive to the office and probably don't have a clue as to what actually goes on out on the street. I don't begrudge that comfortable lifestyle one bit, but let's not pretend that they have any real feel for how most poor people really are. It's not bad intentions, just ignorance.

This is a tremendous post, you're absolutely right about the poor. I work in North Philadelphia, the poorest section of the city. As I drive through the neighborhoods, I'm always struck by the number of sattellite dishes attached to the sides of these deplorable houses.

I see the same people come to our hospital's emergency room to treat the sniffles, because the sniffles have gotten worse, because they didn't go to see a Primary Care Physician in the first place, because they "couldn't afford the doctor's visit." Really, but you can afford $60 a month for cable TV? Get rid of your DirecTV, then I'll listen to your plight.

That said, all kids should be covered. In PA, a kid from any family making less than $40K is covered by the state. That's a pretty high threshold, and covers a ton of poor and lower-middle-class kids alike.

As for human rights, I'm in the camp that believes very, VERY little is an inalienable right. You have to earn your way in this world. If people have all these "rights", you're going to have a bunch who decide to kick back and rely on the rest of us to carry the load for them. The more inalienable human rights you believe there are, the closer you're coming to a socialist society.

- You have the right not to be killed, injured, or threatened by somebody.
- You have all the rights listed in the Constitution. Last I checked, that did not include:

- You do not have the right to healthcare, unless you pay your share.
- You do not have the right to housing, unless you pay for it.
- You do not have the right to food or water, unless you hunt it, find it, or pay for it.

The only reason we have programs like Medicaid, welfare, government housing, isn't because we as a country feel those things are a right. Otherwise, those things would be listed in amendments to the Constitution. Those programs are in place to prevent crime. More people on the streets means they're more likely to resort to dealing drugs, stealing, robbing banks, etc. Those programs are just a cost of doing business in today's world. Inevitably, there are going to be pieces of shit in society. They haven't earned anything, but you give them a house in the projects to reduce the likelihood of them whoring themselves out on the street or dealing drugs.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Perhaps it's just the hippy in me but I just think it's sad in this day and age where we could easily support those that are less fortunate with basic healthcare that we turn our backs on them and have this attitude of "You don't deserve it because you didn't earn it".

Perhaps it's the yuppie in me, but I feel it's sad that a person (myself) that came from a very poor background should have to pay for others to have special privilages without working hard to earn them. I work hard to be where I am in life, and I am the ONLY person on either side of my family with a Master's degree. They all told me not to bother, but I didn't listen. So why I am I punished having to pay for other people's benefits? No one in the world can convince me that someone is a product of their upbringing. It can be done to get away from bad influences. I am living proof.
So what's next? Food? Electricity? A car? Gas? Lottery tickets (cause they all deserve the right to be lucky too right?). Because I worked hard to make more money than 75% of the country, I should be forced to help those (for the most part) that don't want to help themselves? Don't be fooled, the majority of people that can't or don't afford healthcare are in their scenario because of their own actions.
Even a burger flipper at McDonalds is offered health insurance. You say it's turning your back on them...they already have their hand out and in effect turned their backs on us when they decided not to make themselves a valuable member of society.
WHy is it we insist on not holding others accountable for their lives?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Perhaps it's the yuppie in me, but I feel it's sad that a person (myself) that came from a very poor background should have to pay for others to have special privilages without working hard to earn them. I work hard to be where I am in life, and I am the ONLY person on either side of my family with a Master's degree. They all told me not to bother, but I didn't listen. So why I am I punished having to pay for other people's benefits? No one in the world can convince me that someone is a product of their upbringing. It can be done to get away from bad influences. I am living proof.
So what's next? Food? Electricity? A car? Gas? Lottery tickets (cause they all deserve the right to be lucky too right?). Because I worked hard to make more money than 75% of the country, I should be forced to help those (for the most part) that don't want to help themselves? Don't be fooled, the majority of people that can't or don't afford healthcare are in their scenario because of their own actions.
Even a burger flipper at McDonalds is offered health insurance. You say it's turning your back on them...they already have their hand out and in effect turned their backs on us when they decided not to make themselves a valuable member of society.
WHy is it we insist on not holding others accountable for their lives?

You love the slippery slope argument huh? One thing doesn't always have to lead to another.

I'm not saying we should support every bum and slacker out there. I just think we could be providing a bit more when it comes to social services and healthcare. Not every person out there in need is a deadbeat looking to suck off the system.

As for people at McDonald's having healthcare, I'd be willing to be the coverage is pretty shitty and not cheap.

I'm kinda surprised that someone coming from a poor background would have such a selfish outlook. No, you shouldn't be forced to help the less fortunate. But it's sad that it seems you don't want to help, and instead look down on such people.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

You love the slippery slope argument huh? One thing doesn't always have to lead to another.

9 times out of 10 I would say it does lead to another.

As for people at McDonald's having healthcare, I'd be willing to be the coverage is pretty shitty and not cheap.

I'd be willing to bet the opposite. They have more employees than 99% of the country, they would get a great break from insurance companies.

I'm kinda surprised that someone coming from a poor background would have such a selfish outlook. No, you shouldn't be forced to help the less fortunate. But it's sad that it seems you don't want to help, and instead look down on such people.

You are confusing what I am saying for not helping, that's flat out not true. In fact I have mentioned on several threads where I give my money...the key there is that it's MY CHOICE. It's my money, it should be my choice.
Also, the only people I "look down on" are those that have no intentions of making any efforts in life. They would rather people take care of them, then get off their ass and try. I don't apologize for that either.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I'd be willing to bet the opposite. They have more employees than 99% of the country, they would get a great break from insurance companies.

The number of employees has no bearing on the level of health insurance companies offer their employees. Just look at Wal-Mart who are notorious for shafting their employees when it comes to health plan benefits.

Believe me, places that mainly employee low wage workers like McDonald's and Wal-Mart offer quite limited healthcare plans to their employees, and often they have to pay quite a bit for the coverage.

And interesting enough, I found this article:

Ohio Federation of Teachers, AFT, AFL-CIO - OFT Update (OFT's Electronic Newsletter) 3.1.06

A new report from the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services shows Ohio taxpayers spent millions last year providing Medicaid to 104,652 employees and family members of Ohio’s biggest companies, according to the Dispatch. Wal-Mart and McDonald’s each had more than 10,000 employees and dependents receiving benefits from Medicaid, the health insurance program that is funded by the state and federal tax dollars. The Dispatch reported that Wal-Mart workers got an estimated $27.7 million in Medicaid; McDonald’s employees received about $25.8 million.

The top five companies with the most workers and family members receiving tax-funded Medicaid services were Wal-Mart, McDonald's, Yum! Brands (KFC, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Long John Silver's, A&W), Wendy's and Bob Evans.

To relieve the drain on Ohio taxpayers caused when companies fail to provide adequate health care coverage to their employees, state Sen. Robert Hagan (D-Youngstown) in January introduced a bill to require a minimum level of corporate responsibility for workers’ health care. The Fair Share Health Care bill mimics a Maryland law requiring companies with more than 1,000 employees in the state to pay 8 percent of their payroll toward health benefits for employees.

[Hog1]

I think we should demand an accounting from the Fed!
I am quite sure there is plenty of loot being stolen, funneled, absconded with, liberated, etc to support ANY legit programs that we need.
Yes that's it............

[djnemo65]

Right is just a word...it doesn't mean anything. In this day and age where people are murdered everyday over seemingly nothing it's hard to say that anything is truly a right.

Rather, it's about collectively creating the best society that we can. I don't see how a world in which some of us lack adequate access to care is superior than the alternative.

[dmek25]

first - have medical people making medical decisions. no carriers involved at all
second- medical people have to be accountable. period. if you operate on my right leg, when the problem is in my left leg, you screwed up.
third- capping medical malpractice insurance, and no dropping doctors if they are sued.
fourth- if i get my gall bladder out, it costs the same no matter where i go. procedures have to be standardized, so the work load balances out. in theory favoring one hospital over another, strictly by cost, would disappear
this isnt the entire answer, but at least its a starting point

[dmek25]

I'm with Matty here. for every deadbeat out there looking for a handout, there are plenty of people that actually need the help. i don't mind helping. i come from the other side, and know what its like not to have. and its really what us Americans do best, we help when someone is down. i can more then guarantee you that once the dust settles in Iraq, the united states will be there to help rebuild. lets start at home, first

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by dmek25

I'm with Matty here. for every deadbeat out there looking for a handout, there are plenty of people that actually need the help. i don't mind helping. i come from the other side, and know what its like not to have. and its really what us Americans do best, we help when someone is down. i can more then guarantee you that once the dust settles in Iraq, the united states will be there to help rebuild. lets start at home, first

I'm with you for every deadbeat out there looking for a hand out there's plenty more deadbeats looking for hand outs.

[FRPLG]

Funny how our country was founded on limited government and strong states rights. The Federal government was formed in such a way as to govern interactions amongst states and to provide national defense. We don't look at the Federal government like that anymore I guess.

[djnemo65]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/op...ml?ref=opinion

There are a million of these stories, but this is an article about two people who are struggling right now that I thought was affecting. If anyone here has the gall to criticize this family's work ethic then you can really go to hell as far as I am concerned.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/23/op...ml?ref=opinion

There are a million of these stories, but this is an article about two people who are struggling right now that I thought was affecting. If anyone here has the gall to criticize this family's work ethic then you can really go to hell as far as I am concerned.

Sad story on many levels.