Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Perhaps it's just the hippy in me but I just think it's sad in this day and age where we could easily support those that are less fortunate with basic healthcare that we turn our backs on them and have this attitude of "You don't deserve it because you didn't earn it".

Sure there are some slackers out there, but there are also some really hard working people that are in difficult situations that they can't dig out of.

It's too easy to say go to college, get a degree and everything will be ok. If only it were that easy.

Our priorities are really F'd up when we can't provide universal healthcare but we sure can find the money to bomb the shit out of other countries.

That doesn't answer the fundamental question. Why is healthcare a right?

I've never heard someone come up with a logical answer. The only response is emotional in nature; something along the lines of because in this day in age, we just should. It's just wrong not to.

If that's the way people feel, let me ask you this: is it fair for us Americans to provide universal healthcare, in which some of you may be the recipient of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of chemotherapy or surgical care, while people in Africa are starving to death? Isn't food a more immediate need than healthcare? Without food, you die in weeks. Why are we more deserving of healthcare than they're deserving of food? Because we're Americans??

No. None of it is a right. It's all a privelege. It's a privelege to live in the United States of America, where you have ample opportunity to earn enough money to put a roof over your head, give you clean drinking water, pay for your food, and pay for your healthcare. Do it your damn self, and stop whining about having it tough.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

That doesn't answer the fundamental question. Why is healthcare a right?

I've never heard someone come up with a logical answer. The only response is emotional in nature; something along the lines of because in this day in age, we just should. It's just wrong not to.

If that's the way people feel, let me ask you this: is it fair for us Americans to provide universal healthcare, in which some of you may be the recipient of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of chemotherapy or surgical care, while people in Africa are starving to death? Isn't food a more immediate need than healthcare? Without food, you die in weeks. Why are we more deserving of healthcare than they're deserving of food? Because we're Americans??

No. None of it is a right. It's all a privelege. It's a privelege to live in the United States of America, where you have ample opportunity to earn enough money to put a roof over your head, give you clean drinking water, pay for your food, and pay for your healthcare. Do it your damn self, and stop whining about having it tough.

Again, it would be nice if it were always that easy.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Again, it would be nice if it were always that easy.

But who said it was supposed to be easy?

Work and deserve it, earn it to own it.

Dude, come on, how hard is it to get a job answering phones for a living at some big company's call center? You'd get access to PPOs, HMOs, or HSAs.

40 million in the US don't have health insurance. A big chunk of them are the high school dropouts that live below the poverty line. Another chunk own their own business, but don't manage their cash flow well enough to pay for health insurance, and consequently live above their means. And yet another chunk are just flat out irresponsible with their money, and ring up scads of credit card debt and turn around and insist they can't hack the cost of health insurance.

I like the guys who work in manufacturing or something, making a real modest salary, and are smart enough about their money to pony up for the healthcare coverage, even though it crunches their wallets. They'd probably love a national healthcare system, and you know what, I'd love it if they had one. Because they deserve it. Unfortunately, most of the 40 million with out it, they don't deserve it.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But who said it was supposed to be easy?

Work and deserve it, earn it to own it.

Dude, come on, how hard is it to get a job answering phones for a living at some big company's call center? You'd get access to PPOs, HMOs, or HSAs.

40 million in the US don't have health insurance. A big chunk of them are the high school dropouts that live below the poverty line. Another chunk own their own business, but don't manage their cash flow well enough to pay for health insurance, and consequently live above their means. And yet another chunk are just flat out irresponsible with their money, and ring up scads of credit card debt and turn around and insist they can't hack the cost of health insurance.

I like the guys who work in manufacturing or something, making a real modest salary, and are smart enough about their money to pony up for the healthcare coverage, even though it crunches their wallets. They'd probably love a national healthcare system, and you know what, I'd love it if they had one. Because they deserve it. Unfortunately, most of the 40 million with out it, they don't deserve it.

i am one of those guys you are referring to, and yes i would love it. the other part i have high lighted, its really not that hard at all to get the job. the hard part is trying to juggle kids around a work schedule. the united states went from family owned business', that knew all about the employees and their families. to big corporate entities, mostly owned and operated by multi millionaires. who don't give a rats ass about me or my family. in the grand scheme of things, when an insurance company can dictate to anyone in the medical field what the costs should be, something is seriously wrong with that system

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i am one of those guys you are referring to, and yes i would love it. the other part i have high lighted, its really not that hard at all to get the job. the hard part is trying to juggle kids around a work schedule. the united states went from family owned business', that knew all about the employees and their families. to big corporate entities, mostly owned and operated by multi millionaires. who don't give a rats ass about me or my family. in the grand scheme of things, when an insurance company can dictate to anyone in the medical field what the costs should be, something is seriously wrong with that system

I know managed care organizations get a bad rap, and the story you'll hear in the news about how they just about kill someone because of their policies definitely is scary. But I'm here to tell you, from a hospital's standpoint (in case you didn't know I work in the finance office at a health system), that if the HMOs weren't trying to dictate cost management to us, none of our administrators would put pressure on the physicians and nursing staff to get the patient out of the hospital. Patients would sit and sit and sit in hospital beds, costing insurance companies even more money, which would just end up getting passed onto you and everyone else in the form of even higher premiums. Not to mention more beds would be taken up, and in some parts of the country (like Philadelphia) hospitals are already at capacity. Then we'd have people needing a bed in a hospital with no beds available.

The healthcare issue is real easy for people to just say "we need a change." But nobody can come up with a good solution. The reason for that is the problems are ridiculously complicated. It's not nearly as easy as saying "we need a change" or "our system is broken."

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

That doesn't answer the fundamental question. Why is healthcare a right?

I've never heard someone come up with a logical answer. The only response is emotional in nature; something along the lines of because in this day in age, we just should. It's just wrong not to.

If that's the way people feel, let me ask you this: is it fair for us Americans to provide universal healthcare, in which some of you may be the recipient of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of chemotherapy or surgical care, while people in Africa are starving to death? Isn't food a more immediate need than healthcare? Without food, you die in weeks. Why are we more deserving of healthcare than they're deserving of food? Because we're Americans??

No. None of it is a right. It's all a privelege. It's a privelege to live in the United States of America, where you have ample opportunity to earn enough money to put a roof over your head, give you clean drinking water, pay for your food, and pay for your healthcare. Do it your damn self, and stop whining about having it tough.

Amen to that.

My line of work (street cop) obviously dictates that I interact with a number of poor people, ranging from the homeless, people in government subsidized housing (projects) to just your run-of-the-mill poor people living in trailers or run down houses.

The interesting thing that I've noticed, to an almost overwhelming degree, is that alot of this poverty is quite honestly a choice. How do I know it's a choice? The sheer number of big screen TVs, satellite dishes and other expensive toys that you find in the projects, in low-income neigborhoods, etc. Some of the shittiest houses I've been in have huge flat screen TVs, and the number of DirecTV and DISH Network dishes hanging on the side of tax-payer subsidized housing it's just apalling.

I don't make much money as a cop, and consequently I rent an apartment and I don't even have cable TV. I made the choice to pay my bills, pay my taxes and support my wife and daughter rather than let some other hard working tax payer pick up the slack or go into debt so I can afford a luxury item.

Now I'm not arguing that 100% of the poor choose to be that way, absolutely not. I'm certain that there are people who because of circumstance simply can't get on their feet. I will say that in my experience those people are VERY few and far between.

In my interaction with the homeless I always ask them two questions: 1) Do you have a job? 2) Why not? The answer to the first is, obviously, always "no." The answer to the second is quite often "I don't want to work." They'll flat out tell you most of the time that they just don't want to work. The others will claim it's a disability of some sort.

Bringing this back to healthcare, I personally have a really hard time coughing up more of my hard earned dollars to fund healthcare for people who choose to sit on their ass and watch TV all day long while someone else pays for their needs.

I'm all for helping those who are willing to do a bit for themselves. I think a lot of people, with probably very good intentions, want universal, tax-payer funded healthcare because they're out of touch with the world. I have personally walked the projects, walked the shithole neighborhoods, talked to these people on a daily basis. I suppose all of this can be dismissed as purely anecdotal, but I put a lot more stock in my personal experiences than pure conjecture from an ivory tower. I honestly think sometimes that the people proposing half this stuff must hop in their nice car every day, drive to the office and probably don't have a clue as to what actually goes on out on the street. I don't begrudge that comfortable lifestyle one bit, but let's not pretend that they have any real feel for how most poor people really are. It's not bad intentions, just ignorance.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Amen to that.

My line of work (street cop) obviously dictates that I interact with a number of poor people, ranging from the homeless, people in government subsidized housing (projects) to just your run-of-the-mill poor people living in trailers or run down houses.

The interesting thing that I've noticed, to an almost overwhelming degree, is that alot of this poverty is quite honestly a choice. How do I know it's a choice? The sheer number of big screen TVs, satellite dishes and other expensive toys that you find in the projects, in low-income neigborhoods, etc. Some of the shittiest houses I've been in have huge flat screen TVs, and the number of DirecTV and DISH Network dishes hanging on the side of tax-payer subsidized housing it's just apalling.

I don't make much money as a cop, and consequently I rent an apartment and I don't even have cable TV. I made the choice to pay my bills, pay my taxes and support my wife and daughter rather than let some other hard working tax payer pick up the slack or go into debt so I can afford a luxury item.

Now I'm not arguing that 100% of the poor choose to be that way, absolutely not. I'm certain that there are people who because of circumstance simply can't get on their feet. I will say that in my experience those people are VERY few and far between.

In my interaction with the homeless I always ask them two questions: 1) Do you have a job? 2) Why not? The answer to the first is, obviously, always "no." The answer to the second is quite often "I don't want to work." They'll flat out tell you most of the time that they just don't want to work. The others will claim it's a disability of some sort.

Bringing this back to healthcare, I personally have a really hard time coughing up more of my hard earned dollars to fund healthcare for people who choose to sit on their ass and watch TV all day long while someone else pays for their needs.

I'm all for helping those who are willing to do a bit for themselves. I think a lot of people, with probably very good intentions, want universal, tax-payer funded healthcare because they're out of touch with the world. I have personally walked the projects, walked the shithole neighborhoods, talked to these people on a daily basis. I suppose all of this can be dismissed as purely anecdotal, but I put a lot more stock in my personal experiences than pure conjecture from an ivory tower. I honestly think sometimes that the people proposing half this stuff must hop in their nice car every day, drive to the office and probably don't have a clue as to what actually goes on out on the street. I don't begrudge that comfortable lifestyle one bit, but let's not pretend that they have any real feel for how most poor people really are. It's not bad intentions, just ignorance.

It's true for some, no doubt--I lived in NYC for 20 years, so I've seen lots of crap there too. But not everyone is like this, and it's not their kids' fault that their parents are doing this--so I think we need to find a way to insure them.

Also, don't think you don't pay for this stuff already--when those people you speak of do get sick, they go the emergency rooms of big, public hospitals. You know who pays for that? We do. One thing to do is find a way to get some preventative medicine going, so people don't wind up in the system when they're already sick and it costs a ton more. Because, as I said, we're already paying for it.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by JWsleep

It's true for some, no doubt--I lived in NYC for 20 years, so I've seen lots of crap there too. But not everyone is like this, and it's not their kids' fault that their parents are doing this--so I think we need to find a way to insure them.

Also, don't think you don't pay for this stuff already--when those people you speak of do get sick, they go the emergency rooms of big, public hospitals. You know who pays for that? We do. One thing to do is find a way to get some preventative medicine going, so people don't wind up in the system when they're already sick and it costs a ton more. Because, as I said, we're already paying for it.

Oh, I know we already pay for it bigtime. We pay for every lousy drunk I put in jail too. I guess it's the price of "law and order."

The kids are a really sad aspect of this entire thing - breaks my heart some days when I have to see them. It seems like by the age of about 12-14 most of them already don't give a crap and are just fine following in their parent's footsteps. They also are almost beyond intervention or help at that age - not without exception, but I'd argue as a general rule.

The worst part of all of this is watching so many of these screwed up druggies, homeless, poor, whatever the class may be - and they're all having kids. Watching some uneducated, illiterate, strunk out crackhead carrying around a baby is about the worst sight you'll see.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Amen to that.

My line of work (street cop) obviously dictates that I interact with a number of poor people, ranging from the homeless, people in government subsidized housing (projects) to just your run-of-the-mill poor people living in trailers or run down houses.

The interesting thing that I've noticed, to an almost overwhelming degree, is that alot of this poverty is quite honestly a choice. How do I know it's a choice? The sheer number of big screen TVs, satellite dishes and other expensive toys that you find in the projects, in low-income neigborhoods, etc. Some of the shittiest houses I've been in have huge flat screen TVs, and the number of DirecTV and DISH Network dishes hanging on the side of tax-payer subsidized housing it's just apalling.

I don't make much money as a cop, and consequently I rent an apartment and I don't even have cable TV. I made the choice to pay my bills, pay my taxes and support my wife and daughter rather than let some other hard working tax payer pick up the slack or go into debt so I can afford a luxury item.

Now I'm not arguing that 100% of the poor choose to be that way, absolutely not. I'm certain that there are people who because of circumstance simply can't get on their feet. I will say that in my experience those people are VERY few and far between.

In my interaction with the homeless I always ask them two questions: 1) Do you have a job? 2) Why not? The answer to the first is, obviously, always "no." The answer to the second is quite often "I don't want to work." They'll flat out tell you most of the time that they just don't want to work. The others will claim it's a disability of some sort.

Bringing this back to healthcare, I personally have a really hard time coughing up more of my hard earned dollars to fund healthcare for people who choose to sit on their ass and watch TV all day long while someone else pays for their needs.

I'm all for helping those who are willing to do a bit for themselves. I think a lot of people, with probably very good intentions, want universal, tax-payer funded healthcare because they're out of touch with the world. I have personally walked the projects, walked the shithole neighborhoods, talked to these people on a daily basis. I suppose all of this can be dismissed as purely anecdotal, but I put a lot more stock in my personal experiences than pure conjecture from an ivory tower. I honestly think sometimes that the people proposing half this stuff must hop in their nice car every day, drive to the office and probably don't have a clue as to what actually goes on out on the street. I don't begrudge that comfortable lifestyle one bit, but let's not pretend that they have any real feel for how most poor people really are. It's not bad intentions, just ignorance.

You are conflating the destitute with the uninsured which is a big mistake. The fact that some irresponsible poor people waste money on luxury items has nothing to do with the failures of health care in this country.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

You are conflating the destitute with the uninsured which is a big mistake. The fact that some irresponsible poor people waste money on luxury items has nothing to do with the failures of health care in this country.

I'm not mixing the two - a substantial number of the uninsured ARE destitute. I simply said that in my experience, MANY of the poor people waste money on luxury items.

If you're too poor to afford health insurance but you can manage to get a $2500 TV and $100/month for satellite TV, something seems awry. It's not the cause of the "failed" health insurance, but it's one hell of an argument against socialized medicine for the poor, funded by the tax payers.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by mheisig

I'm not mixing the two - a substantial number of the uninsured ARE destitute. I simply said that in my experience, MANY of the poor people waste money on luxury items.

If you're too poor to afford health insurance but you can manage to get a $2500 TV and $100/month for satellite TV, something seems awry. It's not the cause of the "failed" health insurance, but it's one hell of an argument against socialized medicine for the poor, funded by the tax payers.

Yeah but what's your argument? That because some people are irresponsible we should maintain the current system? That makes no sense. What about the people who do everything right and don't qualify for insurance, or choose to invest in their kid's education instead, or whatever. Read the article I posted for one possible example. I agree with you that there are some people who probably don't deserve help, but I fail to see the cogency of that relative to this discussion.

Come on, are you are actually saying that because you saw some big screen TV's on your cop beat we shouldn't change our current healthcare system? I'm not saying there aren't interesting arguments to be made for maintaining the status quo, but that's definitely not one of them.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Amen to that.

My line of work (street cop) obviously dictates that I interact with a number of poor people, ranging from the homeless, people in government subsidized housing (projects) to just your run-of-the-mill poor people living in trailers or run down houses.

The interesting thing that I've noticed, to an almost overwhelming degree, is that alot of this poverty is quite honestly a choice. How do I know it's a choice? The sheer number of big screen TVs, satellite dishes and other expensive toys that you find in the projects, in low-income neigborhoods, etc. Some of the shittiest houses I've been in have huge flat screen TVs, and the number of DirecTV and DISH Network dishes hanging on the side of tax-payer subsidized housing it's just apalling.

I don't make much money as a cop, and consequently I rent an apartment and I don't even have cable TV. I made the choice to pay my bills, pay my taxes and support my wife and daughter rather than let some other hard working tax payer pick up the slack or go into debt so I can afford a luxury item.

Now I'm not arguing that 100% of the poor choose to be that way, absolutely not. I'm certain that there are people who because of circumstance simply can't get on their feet. I will say that in my experience those people are VERY few and far between.

In my interaction with the homeless I always ask them two questions: 1) Do you have a job? 2) Why not? The answer to the first is, obviously, always "no." The answer to the second is quite often "I don't want to work." They'll flat out tell you most of the time that they just don't want to work. The others will claim it's a disability of some sort.

Bringing this back to healthcare, I personally have a really hard time coughing up more of my hard earned dollars to fund healthcare for people who choose to sit on their ass and watch TV all day long while someone else pays for their needs.

I'm all for helping those who are willing to do a bit for themselves. I think a lot of people, with probably very good intentions, want universal, tax-payer funded healthcare because they're out of touch with the world. I have personally walked the projects, walked the shithole neighborhoods, talked to these people on a daily basis. I suppose all of this can be dismissed as purely anecdotal, but I put a lot more stock in my personal experiences than pure conjecture from an ivory tower. I honestly think sometimes that the people proposing half this stuff must hop in their nice car every day, drive to the office and probably don't have a clue as to what actually goes on out on the street. I don't begrudge that comfortable lifestyle one bit, but let's not pretend that they have any real feel for how most poor people really are. It's not bad intentions, just ignorance.

This is a tremendous post, you're absolutely right about the poor. I work in North Philadelphia, the poorest section of the city. As I drive through the neighborhoods, I'm always struck by the number of sattellite dishes attached to the sides of these deplorable houses.

I see the same people come to our hospital's emergency room to treat the sniffles, because the sniffles have gotten worse, because they didn't go to see a Primary Care Physician in the first place, because they "couldn't afford the doctor's visit." Really, but you can afford $60 a month for cable TV? Get rid of your DirecTV, then I'll listen to your plight.

That said, all kids should be covered. In PA, a kid from any family making less than $40K is covered by the state. That's a pretty high threshold, and covers a ton of poor and lower-middle-class kids alike.

As for human rights, I'm in the camp that believes very, VERY little is an inalienable right. You have to earn your way in this world. If people have all these "rights", you're going to have a bunch who decide to kick back and rely on the rest of us to carry the load for them. The more inalienable human rights you believe there are, the closer you're coming to a socialist society.

- You have the right not to be killed, injured, or threatened by somebody.
- You have all the rights listed in the Constitution. Last I checked, that did not include:

- You do not have the right to healthcare, unless you pay your share.
- You do not have the right to housing, unless you pay for it.
- You do not have the right to food or water, unless you hunt it, find it, or pay for it.

The only reason we have programs like Medicaid, welfare, government housing, isn't because we as a country feel those things are a right. Otherwise, those things would be listed in amendments to the Constitution. Those programs are in place to prevent crime. More people on the streets means they're more likely to resort to dealing drugs, stealing, robbing banks, etc. Those programs are just a cost of doing business in today's world. Inevitably, there are going to be pieces of shit in society. They haven't earned anything, but you give them a house in the projects to reduce the likelihood of them whoring themselves out on the street or dealing drugs.