Canadian Healthcare from a Canadian...

[MTK]

Originally Posted by jsarno

The poverty line and $5.15 (now $5.75) are two different things. Isn't it anyone that makes under 20k is under the poverty line? That's around $9.61 an hour. Unsure of where it is for sure. But you're talking about two different things...and you totally missed my point of people that are making that low of an income are making that for a reason. Great employees don't make min wage, and ANYONE COULD be a great employee...don't you agree?

I'm well aware that the poverty line and minimum wage are 2 different things but in the grand scheme of things does it really matter? Point is you have people out there that can barely support themselves, even on $10 an hour. I think there are plenty of great workers out there making shit money, just as there are plenty of people out there who are shit workers making great money.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm well aware that the poverty line and minimum wage are 2 different things but in the grand scheme of things does it really matter? Point is you have people out there that can barely support themselves, even on $10 an hour. I think there are plenty of great workers out there making shit money, just as there are plenty of people out there who are shit workers making great money.

I disagree that there are plenty of great workers making shit money. If they are great, they are moved up. I suppose they have to start somewhere, so maybe if they are new to the company, then I can see your point. But hard workers are hard to come by, so when they are found, they are advanced.
I absolutely agree that there are shit workers making great money. I also agree that is difficult for some to support themselves on $10 an hour. That's why I moved from Boston to Carlsbad, NM. Boston costs too much to live and I knew I'd be in a constant battle to make enough money to live. Boston is one of the highest costs of living in the country, and I loved it there, but I made the decision to leave.
If you live in DC or Boston, and you make $10/hr, you're not going to make it. That's why you PLAN AHEAD! Leave the area, get a degree...whatever it takes to live comfortable for life. I have retirement plans, most my age don't cause they don't plan ahead...is this my problem...nope.
I also find it interesting that people will be making $7 an hour and keep plopping out babies. If you can't support yourself, learn how not to create more financial issues.

It all comes down to self responsibility. We can go around and around with other issues, but it all comes down to self responsibility.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by jsarno

It all comes down to self responsibility. We can go around and around with other issues, but it all comes down to self responsibility.

This I agree with 100%.

We seem to be going back and forth, but I think what's getting lost is that public welfare programs should take care of nothing more than a person's needs, that's it. If you're actually arguing that the government should provide people with anything more than shelter, water, food, heat, and healthcare, then for god's sakes go start your own communist country, because that's what you're advocating. If you can afford anything beyond those basic needs, then you don't need the help. The taxpayers should not be subsidizing your XBox, your plasma TV, or your new suit. Hardworking people earn their money; they should be able to satisfy their own desires, and their children's desires before giving the poor anything beyond what they NEED.

To bring the discussion back on topic, the debate really is about one thing: is healthcare a need, or a luxury? My personal feelings are varied on the matter. For kids, it's a need. You can't expect them to afford it, and denying them care because their parents can't afford it would be like denying them a shot to grow up and afford healthcare on their own. For adults, only emergency care is a need. If you're hit by a bus, you should be given care (as hospitals do) whether you have coverage or not. As for preventative, elective, terminal, psychiatric, rehabilitation, and pain management, I view all of these forms of treatment as luxuries, not needs. Therein lies the true debate - and it's virtually impossible to come to an agreement.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

To bring the discussion back on topic, the debate really is about one thing: is healthcare a need, or a luxury? My personal feelings are varied on the matter. For kids, it's a need. You can't expect them to afford it, and denying them care because their parents can't afford it would be like denying them a shot to grow up and afford healthcare on their own. For adults, only emergency care is a need. If you're hit by a bus, you should be given care (as hospitals do) whether you have coverage or not. As for preventative, elective, terminal, psychiatric, rehabilitation, and pain management, I view all of these forms of treatment as luxuries, not needs. Therein lies the true debate - and it's virtually impossible to come to an agreement.

Yeah, I'd have a hard time believing that insulin shots for diabetics would be a luxury item.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Yeah, I'd have a hard time believing that insulin shots for diabetics would be a luxury item.

You're right, I'd call that a "need" too. Healthcare is so complicated, there are a lot of grey areas that you can't cover with blanket statements like the one I made classifying certain things as needs and others as luxuries.

That complexity is actually one of the reasons that healthcare is so expensive these days. It takes a lot of brains just to sort through all this stuff, and those brains have to be paid.