Classless Coach Belichick

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by TrustinGibbs

I just wonder how smart Belicheck will look when someone knocks Tom Brady out for a few games because he is still on the field throwing the football up by 30+ points in the 4th quarter. Other then that I dont really have a problem with what happened yesterday. Get a problem with them scoring so much...stop em.

I just dont think it's very smart on Belicheck's part because he is IMO begging for someone to take Brady's head off and in reality end their Super Bowl asperations. Keep pissing your opposition off and eventually someone is going to take out the entire leagues frustration on your best player. Thats the kind of karma Belicheck is asking for. Coach Gibbs in the Skin's hey day in this respect was alot smarter then Mr Bill....alot classier too but that is a whole other conversation.

But here's my issue with this type of argument, Belichick isn't playing dirty ball, he's just outcoaching the opponent and his boys are out hustling and out thinking the other side. What's bad karma about that?

I'm sure if the someone runs up the score on N.E. this week or next, they have no problem with it.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I'm sure if the someone runs up the score on N.E. this week or next, they have no problem with it.

I seem to remember several times Belichick was so upset with the opposing coach/team that he either didn't shake hands or was not very cordial about it. I can't remember exactly what happened in those events, but Belichick has already shown that he is a sore loser, IMO.

One instance that sticks out in my mind is when the Jets beat the Pats last year.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

But here's my issue with this type of argument, Belichick isn't playing dirty ball, he's just outcoaching the opponent and his boys are out hustling and out thinking the other side. What's bad karma about that?

I'm sure if the someone runs up the score on N.E. this week or next, they have no problem with it.

I don't think anyone (at least not me) is arguing that we were outcoached and outplayed. They beat us in every last aspect of the game, no doubt about it. And it doesn't excuse our play either - we played like crap and we got beat soundly for it.

It think what people are complaining about is the play calling on the part of the Patriot's offense late in the game. I wouldn't expect the players to take it easy or just kneel down on every possession in the 4th quarter or anything like that. The playcalling from Belichick, however, was extremely aggressive , throwing it deep even when we were down 40+ points to 0.

I think his playcalling was obviously designed to keep racking up points as long as there was time on the clock. When the point differential gets to a certain level it's not about ensuring a win or going for the kill, it's about humiliating an opponent, which is exactly what Belichick was doing.

When the score is 40+ to nothing, throwing the ball deep to get a few more TDs has nothing to do with winning and everything to do with piling on the humiliation and stroking your own ego.

The players can't and shouldn't play less, but they're only going to run what the coach calls, which in Belichicks case is pass, pass, pass, run, run, pass, pass.

Fact of the matter is there is something of an informal agreement or etiquette in football that has lasted decades and he's breaking it, week in and week out. If you DO get up on an opponent by a ridiculous amount, have some class and play a touch more conservative and run the clock out. It's been understood and accepted for years, and Belichick is on a rampage of essentially mocking the entire system and tradition of class that has gone before him.

Tony Dungy's team is undefeated and they've been consistent contenders at the highest level, yet you don't find him or his people embroiled in this much scandal and hatred as you do Belichick and his gang.

As long as he's got the team to keep pounding people like this then there's nothing anyone can do. His legacy in the NFL, however, will most likely be one of victories tarnished buy cheating scandals, a dishonest personal and professional life, and generally being resented by pretty much everyone (except irish and skinsfan).

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by mheisig

I don't think anyone (at least not me) is arguing that we were outcoached and outplayed. They beat us in every last aspect of the game, no doubt about it. And it doesn't excuse our play either - we played like crap and we got beat soundly for it.

It think what people are complaining about is the play calling on the part of the Patriot's offense late in the game. I wouldn't expect the players to take it easy or just kneel down on every possession in the 4th quarter or anything like that. The playcalling from Belichick, however, was extremely aggressive , throwing it deep even when we were down 40+ points to 0.

I think his playcalling was obviously designed to keep racking up points as long as there was time on the clock. When the point differential gets to a certain level it's not about ensuring a win or going for the kill, it's about humiliating an opponent, which is exactly what Belichick was doing.

When the score is 40+ to nothing, throwing the ball deep to get a few more TDs has nothing to do with winning and everything to do with piling on the humiliation and stroking your own ego.

The players can't and shouldn't play less, but they're only going to run what the coach calls, which in Belichicks case is pass, pass, pass, run, run, pass, pass.

Fact of the matter is there is something of an informal agreement or etiquette in football that has lasted decades and he's breaking it, week in and week out. If you DO get up on an opponent by a ridiculous amount, have some class and play a touch more conservative and run the clock out. It's been understood and accepted for years, and Belichick is on a rampage of essentially mocking the entire system and tradition of class that has gone before him.

Tony Dungy's team is undefeated and they've been consistent contenders at the highest level, yet you don't find him or his people embroiled in this much scandal and hatred as you do Belichick and his gang.

As long as he's got the team to keep pounding people like this then there's nothing anyone can do. His legacy in the NFL, however, will most likely be one of victories tarnished buy cheating scandals, a dishonest personal and professional life, and generally being resented by pretty much everyone (except irish and skinsfan).

Okay let's be brutally honest for a minute, part of the issue, and correct me if wrong, is that we have a problem with Belichick as an individual and the perception we have him.

Secondly, if this were to happen at the amateur level, then I would lean on the side of calling character and class into question. But this is professional sports. Why is that important to consider here? Because we invest so much of our time and money looking for the best and the brightest. Drilling it into our kids from the time they can run and compete, "win at all costs" Give one hundred percent...leave it on the field. Well, the Pats have a higher standard for those cliches.

You see in the end, we want it both ways. We love to hear at the end of the big games, "no one deserved it more than so and so". But see, that's not the real world. Sometimes classy people win, and I'm okay with that. And sometimes assholes win and win big, and I'm okay with that too. To me "running up the score" isn't the big deal. As long as he wasn't intentionally cheating or trying to injure someone, then I'm okay with that. His eleven guys pushed our eleven guys back for 60 minutes. What's the problem?

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Okay let's be brutally honest for a minute, part of the issue, and correct me if wrong, is that we have a problem with Belichick as an individual and the perception we have him.

Secondly, if this were to happen at the amateur level, then I would lean on the side of calling character and class into question. But this is professional sports. Why is that important to consider here? Because we invest so much of our time and money looking for the best and the brightest. Drilling it into our kids from the time they can run and compete, "win at all costs" Give one hundred percent...leave it on the field. Well, the Pats have a higher standard for those cliches.

You see in the end, we want it both ways. We love to hear at the end of the big games, "no one deserved it more than so and so". But see, that's not the real world. Sometimes classy people win, and I'm okay with that. And sometimes assholes win and win big, and I'm okay with that too. To me "running up the score" isn't the big deal. As long as he wasn't intentionally cheating or trying to injure someone, then I'm okay with that. His eleven guys pushed our eleven guys back for 60 minutes. What's the problem?

we can go on and on about what happened yesterday. Nothing anyone can say or do will change that. Hopefully we can put the many pieces together and put some good games together for the rest of the season. Maybe we can use the ass kicking as motivation for the rest of the season.
Regarding the "running up the score". I personally think that was very classless. I have played sports my entire life, and we are tought when we win, we win with class. What they did yesterday was far from it. In baseball you dont steal bases late in the game when you are up 5 or so runs. if you do, then the next guy is getting plunked in head, and the next guy. show up a pitcher by posing at the plate, and the next guy will pay for that, and when you come up again you will pay. Playing football when you are up that big in the 4th, you dont line up in shotgun and 5 wide and throw balls all over and down the field. If you want to go for it on 4th down, fine, but run the ball. make the D stop you, if they dont, then they dont. But they lined up and threw for the 1st downs from shotgun. The blitzed the balls off late in the game. I thought it was zero class by a coach who has zero class. He was being as ass after the game "what do you want me to do, kick a field goal?" I just wish for about 10 minutes, our coaching staff would have lost their class and made them pay for doing that crap. Unfortunately we dont have coaches like that. Had it been Buddy Ryan, Mike Ditka, Jerry Glanville, ect they would have taken Brady or who ever was taking the snaps out. I would have sent Sean Taylor after Brady every play, would not have cared about the 15 yard penalties, then Landry, then Marcus, then London. Everyone would have taken their shots. Their will come a team, or a player that wont act as classy as us and they will take their shot at him.
I dont like Ray Lewis very much, but do you think he would have stood their and watched this crap take place with out letting the other team know it wasn't going to happen? He would have taken his shot at someone.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

we can go on and on about what happened yesterday. Nothing anyone can say or do will change that. Hopefully we can put the many pieces together and put some good games together for the rest of the season. Maybe we can use the ass kicking as motivation for the rest of the season.
Regarding the "running up the score". I personally think that was very classless. I have played sports my entire life, and we are tought when we win, we win with class. What they did yesterday was far from it. In baseball you dont steal bases late in the game when you are up 5 or so runs. if you do, then the next guy is getting plunked in head, and the next guy. show up a pitcher by posing at the plate, and the next guy will pay for that, and when you come up again you will pay. Playing football when you are up that big in the 4th, you dont line up in shotgun and 5 wide and throw balls all over and down the field. If you want to go for it on 4th down, fine, but run the ball. make the D stop you, if they dont, then they dont. But they lined up and threw for the 1st downs from shotgun. The blitzed the balls off late in the game. I thought it was zero class by a coach who has zero class. He was being as ass after the game "what do you want me to do, kick a field goal?" I just wish for about 10 minutes, our coaching staff would have lost their class and made them pay for doing that crap. Unfortunately we dont have coaches like that. Had it been Buddy Ryan, Mike Ditka, Jerry Glanville, ect they would have taken Brady or who ever was taking the snaps out. I would have sent Sean Taylor after Brady every play, would not have cared about the 15 yard penalties, then Landry, then Marcus, then London. Everyone would have taken their shots. Their will come a team, or a player that wont act as classy as us and they will take their shot at him.
I dont like Ray Lewis very much, but do you think he would have stood their and watched this crap take place with out letting the other team know it wasn't going to happen? He would have taken his shot at someone.

So in baseball a 5 point lead is enough to play safe? I've seen allot of teams score more than 5 points in an inning and would not want my team to sit on a five point lead.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by firstdown

So in baseball a 5 point lead is enough to play safe? I've seen allot of teams score more than 5 points in an inning and would not want my team to sit on a five point lead.

does everything have to be a disagreement? you get my point. If we were up 5 runs in the 8th or 9th, we certainly weren't playing the same way we did in the early innings. if you have ever played meaningful baseball then you know being up 5 runs in the 8th or 9th, or maybe 8 runs if you want more, you dont steal bases, show up pitchers, its one of those unwritten rules. Its amazing how different peoples perception of playing the right way has changed over the years. I guess thats one of those generation things from a previous thread.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

we can go on and on about what happened yesterday. Nothing anyone can say or do will change that. Hopefully we can put the many pieces together and put some good games together for the rest of the season. Maybe we can use the ass kicking as motivation for the rest of the season.
Regarding the "running up the score". I personally think that was very classless. I have played sports my entire life, and we are tought when we win, we win with class. What they did yesterday was far from it. In baseball you dont steal bases late in the game when you are up 5 or so runs. if you do, then the next guy is getting plunked in head, and the next guy. show up a pitcher by posing at the plate, and the next guy will pay for that, and when you come up again you will pay. Playing football when you are up that big in the 4th, you dont line up in shotgun and 5 wide and throw balls all over and down the field. If you want to go for it on 4th down, fine, but run the ball. make the D stop you, if they dont, then they dont. But they lined up and threw for the 1st downs from shotgun. The blitzed the balls off late in the game. I thought it was zero class by a coach who has zero class. He was being as ass after the game "what do you want me to do, kick a field goal?" I just wish for about 10 minutes, our coaching staff would have lost their class and made them pay for doing that crap. Unfortunately we dont have coaches like that. Had it been Buddy Ryan, Mike Ditka, Jerry Glanville, ect they would have taken Brady or who ever was taking the snaps out. I would have sent Sean Taylor after Brady every play, would not have cared about the 15 yard penalties, then Landry, then Marcus, then London. Everyone would have taken their shots. Their will come a team, or a player that wont act as classy as us and they will take their shot at him.
I dont like Ray Lewis very much, but do you think he would have stood their and watched this crap take place with out letting the other team know it wasn't going to happen? He would have taken his shot at someone.

wait a minute, wait a minute...like I told someone a few minutes ago, we had 60 minutes to send these guys after brady and couldn't get it done. no reason to think that because we're pissed at them for running up the score, we would all of a sudden get a good shot on brady.

i guess we have different definitions of "class" though.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

wait a minute, wait a minute...like I told someone a few minutes ago, we had 60 minutes to send these guys after brady and couldn't get it done. no reason to think that because we're pissed at them for running up the score, we would all of a sudden get a good shot on brady.

i guess we have different definitions of "class" though.

I am not sure if it was you I answered on this, but I agree. I would have started blitzing late 2nd, or start of the 2nd half. We couldn't stop them sitting back, so why not blitz. My point was we didn't blitz all day, and this was just added fuel to hit brady and show Belichek we were not going to stand for them running the score up. I have always been tought to win with class, and that wasn't it yesterday. However, there are unwritten rules that are not or should not broken. I was pitcher through college and there are a ton of unwritten rules there, as I am sure there are in football. Had someone shown us up or me up, there was retrobution. Now, is that classless?? No, i think its payback, which is acceptable to me. If they wanted to leave Brady in the game and run the score up, show no respect for Gibbs, then make them pay for it. if we had gone after brady, or drilled Moss a couple of time or who ever, I dont think we would be looked at as classless, we would be looked at like a team that stood up for ourselves and won't take that kind of crap. Now we sort of look like a bunch whiners about getting our asses whipped. Personally, I would have gone the "hit him every play, F*** the 15 yard penalties" route.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Okay let's be brutally honest for a minute, part of the issue, and correct me if wrong, is that we have a problem with Belichick as an individual and the perception we have him.

Secondly, if this were to happen at the amateur level, then I would lean on the side of calling character and class into question. But this is professional sports. Why is that important to consider here? Because we invest so much of our time and money looking for the best and the brightest. Drilling it into our kids from the time they can run and compete, "win at all costs" Give one hundred percent...leave it on the field. Well, the Pats have a higher standard for those cliches.

You see in the end, we want it both ways. We love to hear at the end of the big games, "no one deserved it more than so and so". But see, that's not the real world. Sometimes classy people win, and I'm okay with that. And sometimes assholes win and win big, and I'm okay with that too. To me "running up the score" isn't the big deal. As long as he wasn't intentionally cheating or trying to injure someone, then I'm okay with that. His eleven guys pushed our eleven guys back for 60 minutes. What's the problem?

Not that this is the point of the post or thread, but "win at all costs" is not what I'm teaching my kids.

I think your point about Belichick being and asshole and winning is absolutely right. I guess we just take it differently when an asshole wins. I agree, assholes win all the time, they succeed, make money, get famous and so on. That doesn't mean I like it or am ok with it. I like to see "good" guys like Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy or Joe Gibbs win, and who wouldn't?

I think it's an almost universal thing to want to see "good" people thrive and see the "evil" people fail. Doesn't always happen like that, but that doesn't mean I'm not pissed off, and rightly so, when a prick like Belichick not only wins, but makes it a point to humiliate his opponents at every turn.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Not that this is the point of the post or thread, but "win at all costs" is not what I'm teaching my kids.

I think your point about Belichick being and asshole and winning is absolutely right. I guess we just take it differently when an asshole wins. I agree, assholes win all the time, they succeed, make money, get famous and so on. That doesn't mean I like it or am ok with it. I like to see "good" guys like Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy or Joe Gibbs win, and who wouldn't?

I think it's an almost universal thing to want to see "good" people thrive and see the "evil" people fail. Doesn't always happen like that, but that doesn't mean I'm not pissed off, and rightly so, when a prick like Belichick not only wins, but makes it a point to humiliate his opponents at every turn.

Agreed.

[irish]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Not that this is the point of the post or thread, but "win at all costs" is not what I'm teaching my kids.

I think your point about Belichick being and asshole and winning is absolutely right. I guess we just take it differently when an asshole wins. I agree, assholes win all the time, they succeed, make money, get famous and so on. That doesn't mean I like it or am ok with it. I like to see "good" guys like Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy or Joe Gibbs win, and who wouldn't?

I think it's an almost universal thing to want to see "good" people thrive and see the "evil" people fail. Doesn't always happen like that, but that doesn't mean I'm not pissed off, and rightly so, when a prick like Belichick not only wins, but makes it a point to humiliate his opponents at every turn.

I dont think A-holes win all the time. They win & lose like everyone else. Also, are you saying BB is evil? Thats a stretch if I ever heard one. A-hole and evil are not synonyms.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by irish

I dont think A-holes win all the time. They win & lose like everyone else. Also, are you saying BB is evil? Thats a stretch if I ever heard one. A-hole and evil are not synonyms.

I was responding to 12th's post...but I'll clarify anyway.

I didn't mean assholes win all the time as in they win 100% of the time, but as in it's very common to see them win, not an unusual event.

I put "evil" and "good" in quotes to hopefully make the hyperbole obvious. I'm not equating Belichick with Adolf Hitler, just illustrating the difference between the "good guys" in the NFL and the "bad guys."