Should Gibbs Flip The Script: Passing Team Now?

[Schneed10]

I think this team still needs to run quite a bit. That's not to say that we shouldn't use the hurry-up, the hurry-up can help us run AND help us throw more effectively.

But I don't like passing all that much more than running, UNLESS the situation calls for it and we're behind in the game.

Why did Cambpell air it out 50 times against Dallas? Because for much of the 2nd half, we were down and needed to catch up. We saw what happened when he aired it out that much... he threw a pick. And that's on a very very good day for him. This is not to second-guess the decision to throw, the decision to throw that much was necessitated by the fact that we were down.

But you can't throw a pick if you're running the ball. Of course you can fumble, but Portis's fumble rate is a lot lower than Campbell's INT rate.

In the end, I'm in favor of attacking the defense with whatever the situation calls for. If we're ahead, lean heavier on the run (though change the scheme a bit to be less conservative). If we're behind, lean on the pass. And at all times, feature the hurry-up.

Turnovers are still the factor that has the most influence on the outcome of NFL games. You have to approach the game with balance, and be ready to adjust based on the situation.

[warriorzpath]

I think the offense is finally finding its identity - it's becoming Saunders's offense.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think this team still needs to run quite a bit. That's not to say that we shouldn't use the hurry-up, the hurry-up can help us run AND help us throw more effectively.

But I don't like passing all that much more than running, UNLESS the situation calls for it and we're behind in the game.

Why did Cambpell air it out 50 times against Dallas? Because for much of the 2nd half, we were down and needed to catch up. We saw what happened when he aired it out that much... he threw a pick. And that's on a very very good day for him. This is not to second-guess the decision to throw, the decision to throw that much was necessitated by the fact that we were down.

But you can't throw a pick if you're running the ball. Of course you can fumble, but Portis's fumble rate is a lot lower than Campbell's INT rate.

In the end, I'm in favor of attacking the defense with whatever the situation calls for. If we're ahead, lean heavier on the run (though change the scheme a bit to be less conservative). If we're behind, lean on the pass. And at all times, feature the hurry-up.

Turnovers are still the factor that has the most influence on the outcome of NFL games. You have to approach the game with balance, and be ready to adjust based on the situation.

Coach Gibbs is that you??

Success in today's NFL is predicated on scoring points in bundles and making the other team outscore you. The mentality of not wanting to throw the ball because you're afraid of turnovers is the biggest reason our offense was stuck in the '80s for the past 4 years..

The notion of 'balance' and 'running and defense wins' are antiquated. Look at the top teams NE (#2 in passing offense), Dallas (#3), GB(#1), Indy (#6) and they are in the top 6 of passing offense and are outpacing their running games by 164, 152, 222 & 128 yards per game.. They are all also in the top 15 in rushing yards per game (none exceeding 132 YPG) but that's not balance, that's passing early, getting up on your opponent by 3-4 TD and running the ball to maintain possession and keep them off the field.

[70Chip]

If the defense were playing better you could consider going pass heavy. But, with the defense giving up huge plays, I think it's wise to be a little methodical and use more time. You can really aggrevate your defensive woes by giving the other team too many posessions. A game can become a track meet really fast and the way our secondary looked yesterday, I don't think we want a track meet.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Coach Gibbs is that you??

Success in today's NFL is predicated on scoring points in bundles and making the other team outscore you. The mentality of not wanting to throw the ball because you're afraid of turnovers is the biggest reason our offense was stuck in the '80s for the past 4 years..

The notion of 'balance' and 'running and defense wins' are antiquated. Look at the top teams NE (#2 in passing offense), Dallas (#3), GB(#1), Indy (#6) and they are in the top 6 of passing offense and are outpacing their running games by 164, 152, 222 & 128 yards per game.. They are all also in the top 15 in rushing yards per game (none exceeding 132 YPG) but that's not balance, that's passing early, getting up on your opponent by 3-4 TD and running the ball to maintain possession and keep them off the field.

But aren't you arguing for the Martz philosophy? All due respect to the Redskins WRs, but we don't have Roy Williams, Calvin Johnson, Mike Furrey, and Shaun McDonald lining up for us. Or even Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and Dallas Clark. Or even Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Donte Stallworth, and Ben Watson.

I'm all for the hurry up, spreading the field, and striking quickly in the passing game. We look good, and it is a clear strength of our offense.

Notice that by no means am I suggesting that we always run. I think we should run draws and such out of spread formations to keep the defense off balance. We should feature screen passes which keep aggressive defensive lines in check, and can be used as an extension of the running game. And we should continue to use the hurry up. I definitely don't think we should crowd into the line of scrimmage with a jumbo package and run up the middle all the time, like we've been doing. We should switch the scheme up and modernize it.

But to say that because Campbell threw successfully yesterday after having 50 attempts, that we should approach the game trying to pass 4 out of five times, that's how you give your defense short fields with which to work. It's how you tire your defense out.

In the end, you play to your strength. We've got Clinton Portis, Chris Cooley, solid WRs, and a developing QB. To me, that personnel screams balance.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But aren't you arguing for the Martz philosophy? All due respect to the Redskins WRs, but we don't have Roy Williams, Calvin Johnson, Mike Furrey, and Shaun McDonald lining up for us. Or even Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison and Dallas Clark. Or even Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Donte Stallworth, and Ben Watson.

I'm all for the hurry up, spreading the field, and striking quickly in the passing game. We look good, and it is a clear strength of our offense.

Notice that by no means am I suggesting that we always run. I think we should run draws and such out of spread formations to keep the defense off balance. We should feature screen passes which keep aggressive defensive lines in check, and can be used as an extension of the running game. And we should continue to use the hurry up. I definitely don't think we should crowd into the line of scrimmage with a jumbo package and run up the middle all the time, like we've been doing. We should switch the scheme up and modernize it.

But to say that because Campbell threw successfully yesterday after having 50 attempts, that we should approach the game trying to pass 4 out of five times, that's how you give your defense short fields with which to work. It's how you tire your defense out.

In the end, you play to your strength. We've got Clinton Portis, Chris Cooley, solid WRs, and a developing QB. To me, that personnel screams balance.

Since you mentioned the Martz philosophy (relentlessly attack), yeah pretty much.. He got fired for his game management skills & personality, not because his offense stopped working.. I think a Martz type offense works better for this team than what we've been running.. A fast back, small quick WR with deep speed to separate, a pass catching TE to exploit the seams doesn't support a power running team, which is what we've tried to be for some reason.

I agree with your assessment of our strengths on offense but the crutch of a 'developing QB' is off base I think. Yes, he's developing but he can't fully develop unless you let him. He's a third year QB, not a fresh faced rookie.. He's into his second 'season' as a starter, there's no reason to hold back anything from the game plan for him. He has shown that he is a playmaker, when given the chance. I posted earlier, I think his rust/inaccuracy on the deep ball is because he hadn't had a chance to throw it in games much until the past 2 weeks. If you have a high performance car in the garage you don't take the minivan on a Sunday drive.

I'm not advocating a 80-20 pass-run ratio but I think 65-35 or so would yield us much better results in the W-L columns than what we've done for 80% of the games this year.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Coach Gibbs is that you??

Success in today's NFL is predicated on scoring points in bundles and making the other team outscore you. The mentality of not wanting to throw the ball because you're afraid of turnovers is the biggest reason our offense was stuck in the '80s for the past 4 years..

The notion of 'balance' and 'running and defense wins' are antiquated. Look at the top teams NE (#2 in passing offense), Dallas (#3), GB(#1), Indy (#6) and they are in the top 6 of passing offense and are outpacing their running games by 164, 152, 222 & 128 yards per game.. They are all also in the top 15 in rushing yards per game (none exceeding 132 YPG) but that's not balance, that's passing early, getting up on your opponent by 3-4 TD and running the ball to maintain possession and keep them off the field.

Running the ball has been "antiquated" on several non-consecutive occasions since I've been watching the NFL. Gibbs was of course a key architect of Air Coryell which was the first time I remember hearing these things. That offense emerged following a rules change in much the way the current passing teams are aided by an extreme interpretation of the rules. It never lasts though. Defenses adjust and teams go back to running the ball. Or a team emerges that just runs the ball really well and everyone jumps on that caravan for a few seasons.

In addition, there seems to be a pervasive notion that somehow the fans and the media and the bloggers know more about and have a better understanding of the NFL and football generally than Coach Joe Gibbs. You may believe this to be true, but it has absolutely no basis whatsoever in any objective reality. I wish I could just laugh at it, but I can't, because I find it so disrespectful and conceited. The worst assistant coach on the worst team in the league knows more about football than most of us put together.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

Running the ball has been "antiquated" on several non-consecutive occasions since I've been watching the NFL. Gibbs was of course a key architect of Air Coryell which was the first time I remember hearing these things. That offense emerged following a rules change in much the way the current passing teams are aided by an extreme interpretation of the rules. It never lasts though. Defenses adjust and teams go back to running the ball. Or a team emerges that just runs the ball really well and everyone jumps on that caravan for a few seasons.

In addition, there seems to be a pervasive notion that somehow the fans and the media and the bloggers know more about and have a better understanding of the NFL and football generally than Coach Joe Gibbs. You may believe this to be true, but it has absolutely no basis whatsoever in any objective reality. I wish I could just laugh at it, but I can't, because I find it so disrespectful and conceited. The worst assistant coach on the worst team in the league knows more about football than most of us put together.

And when it does, then adjust back to that but stubbornly sticking to a philosophy, trends and results be damned is kinda silly don't ya think?

I've got tons of respect for Coach Joe, grew up rooting for Gibbs 1.0.. I don't think I 'know more' than anyone in the NFL but knowing more doesn't always equate to making the right decisions. Are you saying that just because we don't know more than the worst assistant on the worst team then we have no right to second guess?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

And when it does, then adjust back to that but stubbornly sticking to a philosophy, trends and results be damned is kinda silly don't ya think?

I've got tons of respect for Coach Joe, grew up rooting for Gibbs 1.0.. I don't think I 'know more' than anyone in the NFL but knowing more doesn't always equate to making the right decisions. Are you saying that just because we don't know more than the worst assistant on the worst team then we have no right to second guess?

If people are going to take a condescending tone towards Gibbs, I'm going to challenge them. That's all.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Coach Gibbs is that you??

Success in today's NFL is predicated on scoring points in bundles and making the other team outscore you. The mentality of not wanting to throw the ball because you're afraid of turnovers is the biggest reason our offense was stuck in the '80s for the past 4 years..

The notion of 'balance' and 'running and defense wins' are antiquated. Look at the top teams NE (#2 in passing offense), Dallas (#3), GB(#1), Indy (#6) and they are in the top 6 of passing offense and are outpacing their running games by 164, 152, 222 & 128 yards per game.. They are all also in the top 15 in rushing yards per game (none exceeding 132 YPG) but that's not balance, that's passing early, getting up on your opponent by 3-4 TD and running the ball to maintain possession and keep them off the field.

When we pass early, and take say a 17 point lead at halftime and then start running to maintian possession, it's called "lack of a killer instinct."

It's very rare that you can fully succeed without being able to run and stop the run effectively. Ask Elway (Terrell Davis) or Manning (Addai/Rhodes).

People can mock balance all they want, but ultimately it's the best formula for the personnel we have.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

When we pass early, and take say a 17 point lead at halftime and then start running to maintian possession, it's called "lack of a killer instinct."

It's very rare that you can fully succeed without being able to run and stop the run effectively. Ask Elway (Terrell Davis) or Manning (Addai/Rhodes).

People can mock balance all they want, but ultimately it's the best formula for the personnel we have.

That's because a 17 point lead is not sufficient to start running to maintain possession in the third quarter.. Killer instinct (see Belichek, Bill or Martz, Mike) is to keep attacking until the 4th quarter and the game is well in hand.. I'm not advocating giving up on the running game.. I'd just like to see us be more pass focused.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

It's very rare that you can fully succeed without being able to run and stop the run effectively. Ask Elway (Terrell Davis) or Manning (Addai/Rhodes).

People can mock balance all they want, but ultimately it's the best formula for the personnel we have.

Agreed, and personally, I could even see the "mighty" Patriots running into a bit of trouble in late December and January, when the weather gets crappy and they have no running game to lean on.