AST (After Sean Taylor)-To gun or not to gun?

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

That's how it always is with stats. You can bend numbers to mean just about whatever you want, especially you view them as narrowly as possible. Personally I believe that if criminal A thinks he there is a good chance that he will be shot and killed if he tries to rob a hom, that he will not try to rob said home. Conversely, if a criminal thinks there are little to no serious repercussions then they are much more likely to commit the crime...

Yeah, stats are nice and all, but some good old fashioned logic and rational thinking goes a long way.

I'm a burglar. House A has a homeowner with no firearms of any sort. House B the homeowner is armed and trained. Which house should I rob?

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

Yeah, stats are nice and all, but some good old fashioned logic and rational thinking goes a long way.

I'm a burglar. House A has a homeowner with no firearms of any sort. House B the homeowner is armed and trained. Which house should I rob?

And conversely, I'm a kid who lives in house A with no firearms of any sort. In house B, there's another kid who's father is armed and trained. Which kid has the greater risk of getting hurt?

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

And conversely, I'm a kid who lives in house A with no firearms of any sort. In house B, there's another kid who's father is armed and trained. Which kid has the greater risk of getting hurt?

If the kid is properly trained, neither.

The whole kids and firearms argument, to me, is about as weak as it gets. It sure hits the old heart strings when you bring up the kids, but it's not really grounded in much.

When I was about 5 years old, my father took me aside, pulled out his old .22 Colt Woodsman, unloaded it and let me hold it. He told me where he kept it, why he kept it and explained how it worked. He then told me that if I ever wanted to hold it or see it to just ask him, any time of the night or day, and he'd do it with me. At the age of about 8 he took me to the range and taught me to shoot, and also fire three rounds while neither of us had ear protection on, so that I would know what a live fired weapon sounds like. I never snuck into his room to handle a gun, because all I had to do was ask.

Basically the firearm wasn't shrouded in secrecy, locked up, put away and never talked about. That amount of shady secrecy is going to guarantee that a kid will go looking for it.

Yes, untrained, unparented kids find guns and do stupid stuff. They can also grab the car keys and go drive down the road, or drink a bottle of Draino, or stab themselves in the eye with a knife, but I don't hear anyone arguing that nobody should have cars, knives or Draino.

There are some decent arguments against everyone having guns, but "the children" is not one of them.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by mheisig

If the kid is properly trained, neither.

The whole kids and firearms argument, to me, is about as weak as it gets. It sure hits the old heart strings when you bring up the kids, but it's not really grounded in much.

When I was about 5 years old, my father took me aside, pulled out his old .22 Colt Woodsman, unloaded it and let me hold it. He told me where he kept it, why he kept it and explained how it worked. He then told me that if I ever wanted to hold it or see it to just ask him, any time of the night or day, and he'd do it with me. At the age of about 8 he took me to the range and taught me to shoot, and also fire three rounds while neither of us had ear protection on, so that I would know what a live fired weapon sounds like. I never snuck into his room to handle a gun, because all I had to do was ask.

Basically the firearm wasn't shrouded in secrecy, locked up, put away and never talked about. That amount of shady secrecy is going to guarantee that a kid will go looking for it.

Yes, untrained, unparented kids find guns and do stupid stuff. They can also grab the car keys and go drive down the road, or drink a bottle of Draino, or stab themselves in the eye with a knife, but I don't hear anyone arguing that nobody should have cars, knives or Draino.

There are some decent arguments against everyone having guns, but "the children" is not one of them.

But you're assuming the child is properly trained. You can't assume that all parents are going to be responsible about guns and train their kids like you were trained. It's up to the parents, and if the parents are irresponsible, like so many are, the poor kid is subjected to a situation over which he has no control.

It's not like a 7 year old is going to go out and seek training. If his dad isn't as good a parent as your father was to you, he's up a creek. When it comes to adults accidentally killing themselves because they have no training, I have little sympathy, because you reap what you sow. But a 7 year old? He's the victim of poor parenting, and you can't dismiss that with the old 'you reap what you sow' argument. The children need to be protected from their own parents at times.

I don't know how you do that effectively, mind you. But I definitely disagree that kids aren't a valid argument against owning a gun. In your situation, I'll agree. But not for most.

I still maintain that moving away from crime to safer neighborhoods is the most effective way to provide a safe life for you and your family.

[mheisig]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But you're assuming the child is properly trained. You can't assume that all parents are going to be responsible about guns and train their kids like you were trained. It's up to the parents, and if the parents are irresponsible, like so many are, the poor kid is subjected to a situation over which he has no control.

It's not like a 7 year old is going to go out and seek training. If his dad isn't as good a parent as your father was to you, he's up a creek. When it comes to adults accidentally killing themselves because they have no training, I have little sympathy, because you reap what you sow. But a 7 year old? He's the victim of poor parenting, and you can't dismiss that with the old 'you reap what you sow' argument. The children need to be protected from their own parents at times.

I don't know how you do that effectively, mind you. But I definitely disagree that kids aren't a valid argument against owning a gun. In your situation, I'll agree. But not for most.

I still maintain that moving away from crime to safer neighborhoods is the most effective way to provide a safe life for you and your family.

From that standpoint I would agree with you. Irresponsible adults should not own guns, and irresponsible adults with untrained children should not own guns.

They should also not own about a thousand other common household items.

You don't seem to be arguing for a total gun ban, so I'm not saying it from that standpoint. So many times, though, people argue that all guns should be banned "for the children," which is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Working in the projects I saw young kids being the victims on a regular of poor nutrition, emotional, physical and sexual abuse far more often than. No, those aren't life ending the way a firearm can be, but when idiots have kids, bad stuff happens. You are absolutely right that stupid parents put their kids in situations where the kid is a victim. That's going to happen whether a gun is there or not. The kids life is a clusterfuck at that point and is probably exposed to any number of dangerous situations day in and day out.

When I speak of the "average citizen" having a gun for self defense, I'm really more referring to your lower-middle class and up folks. People with a decent job, provide for a family, kids go to school, parents work hard. What I would characterize as the bulk of America.

Yes, I agree that some idiot living in a hole who lets their kid do whatever they want all day and never parents them, absolutely should not have a gun. Or a car.

[TheHolyGibbs]

Never in my wildest dreams did I think there would be soooo many worms in this here can...gaaaaawwwwwlllleey gee whiz.

I think my best bet is to

-make my neighbor with kids buy a gun, ask him to rush right over if he ever hears anything strange, and make sure my kids never ever play over there

-always live in the poorest looking house on the whole block

-get a German Shepherd with the mange and a drooling problem.