Loose Change

[SmootSmack]

Ok, you're right it's not a good welcome. Sorry again

Now, what do you think of the movie now?

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

As I said before, I think it brought up a lot of valid points. It did a decent job of making you believe what the author WANTED you to believe. But, factual information inside of the movie was few and far between. Now, personally, movie or not, I think 9-11 WAS a tragedy that was known of before it happened and was handled poorly by our country. It bugs me that a lot of things they say are so dumb and they expect us to believe them. Like the whole passport thing, you mean to tell me that a plane crashed into a building and I'm supposed to believe you found a passport of one of the terrorists in the streets of Manhattan AFTERWARDS?!? Thats a little far fetched but then again, this entire story is on BOTH sides. It's bad when you cant trust your GOV. enough to tell you the truth. It's worse when that trust is so bad that you believe 90% of what is thrown at you that says the Gov is lying to you.

Again, it was an interesting video with a few far-and-between facts, but I was not aware of the actual premise of the movie before I posted. If I had known it was meant to be a work of fiction presented as a documentary, I dont think this discussion would even be taking place.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JGisLordOfTheRings

As I said before, I think it brought up a lot of valid points. It did a decent job of making you believe what the author WANTED you to believe. But, factual information inside of the movie was few and far between. Now, personally, movie or not, I think 9-11 WAS a tragedy that was known of before it happened and was handled poorly by our country. It bugs me that a lot of things they say are so dumb and they expect us to believe them. Like the whole passport thing, you mean to tell me that a plane crashed into a building and I'm supposed to believe you found a passport of one of the terrorists in the streets of Manhattan AFTERWARDS?!? Thats a little far fetched but then again, this entire story is on BOTH sides. It's bad when you cant trust your GOV. enough to tell you the truth. It's worse when that trust is so bad that you believe 90% of what is thrown at you that says the Gov is lying to you.

Again, it was an interesting video with a few far-and-between facts, but I was not aware of the actual premise of the movie before I posted. If I had known it was meant to be a work of fiction presented as a documentary, I dont think this discussion would even be taking place.

Now that wasn't so hard was it?

Well, anyhow I think often for our own good the government doesn't tell us everything. And I agree that certain policies and actions (plus lack of action) over the years played a factor in the tragedy. But such is the case for almost all major events in history. Nothing "just happens"

I don't believe, and yes I find it insulting that those kids would imply such a thing, that there was a conspiracy to kill hundreds of thousands of people primarily for political gain.

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Now that wasn't so hard was it?

Well, anyhow I think often for our own good the government doesn't tell us everything. And I agree that certain policies and actions (plus lack of action) over the years played a factor in the tragedy. But such is the case for almost all major events in history. Nothing "just happens"

I don't believe, and yes I find it insulting that those kids would imply such a thing, that there was a conspiracy to kill hundreds of thousands of people primarily for political gain.

I have no problem with that, I just give the kids a little credit because:

A. They took the time to AT LEAST ask questions, something a lot of people refused to do after 9/11.

B. After forming their opinions on what really happened, they expressed how they felt. Now, granted, I think that movie should start with a warning that says WHAT the movie actually is; and that is a work of fiction, mixed with sparse facts, that has been made to look like a documentary. That might've saved me a little brain melt-age.

I agree about the Gov not telling us as a people everything.

The average person is smart, witty, intelligent and capable of understanding things but PEOPLE as a GROUP cannot handle stuff like that. People as a group are instinctive, dumb animals that let their brains take a rest.....

[JoeRedskin]

Fair enough. Sorry, however, I still disagree both with the premise of the film and the extent to which it was carried. I am a firm beliewver in questioning governement. I am will also ridicule as foolish and arrogant those who refuse to use logic or reason in their presentation of ideas.

You object to the terms "moron", "spitting in the face", and others of that ilk. As I said, although not your original intention - the original post your initial response invited in light of the baselessness of the original video. As I said before, idiotic and/or baseless statements deserve to be ridiculed. Otherwise, to treat them with respect is to grant them something they not don't deserve but is harmful b/c to give them respect is undercut their idiocy. Foolish people debate foolish statements.

Did something, perhaps, slip by that should've been found out? Yup. But guess what, that happens everyday in government. As someone said, on one hand there is this desire to imply the govt. is carefully scheming away while at the same time assert that their is some brilliant plot at work. It the same argument that has been made for thousands of years - dark mysterious forces are manipulating our government and our perceptions.

There is undoubtedly some attempt by some individuals to manipulate feelings - that too is as old as government itself (and religion for that matter). But, and this is a big but, such conspiracies rarely run as deep or are as organized as those who wish to oppose them assert. It's foolish game of manipulation by both sides and one that requires a careful balancing of skepticism and trust.

[EternalEnigma21]

As I said before, idiotic and/or baseless statements deserve to be ridiculed.

it wasn't the posts that were being ridiculed... it was the poster. Everyone is guilty of getting offended and spouting off, but that doesn't make it right. Calling someone you disagree with a moron is wrong, even if he's wrong... Hell even if he's a complete moron (at least within the bounds of the warpath, so sayeth canthetuna).

the difference is probably one of the points on that poster titled "All I ever really needed to know I learned in kindergarten"

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

it wasn't the posts that were being ridiculed... it was the poster. Everyone is guilty of getting offended and spouting off, but that doesn't make it right. Calling someone you disagree with a moron is wrong, even if he's wrong... Hell even if he's a complete moron (at least within the bounds of the warpath, so sayeth canthetuna).

the difference is probably one of the points on that poster titled "All I ever really needed to know I learned in kindergarten"

That's all I had a problem with. If everyone came out and said well, "This post is retarded and you need to do your homework because this movie is trash", then it would have been easier to accept my wrongs and correct them.

But, what I got was, "You're a moron" etc etc.....everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats the beauty of this country that has duped me so well; we can speak our minds freely. Lol....and before I get assualted with moron tags, I'm joking about the whole being duped thing. lol

[JoeRedskin]

Again, fair enough. Though his initial responses did seem to invite a certain level of abuse. Clearly, their was plenty of room for misunderstanding on both sides.

And, BTW - scientifical is officially in my lexicon. JGLR, please know that I do not use it to ridicule you but b/c it so accurately catches the tenor of so much of what is proposed as true scientific doctrine. (It's like science, but it's not! - it's scientifical).

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Again, fair enough. Though his initial responses did seem to invite a certain level of abuse. Clearly, their was plenty of room for misunderstanding on both sides.

And, BTW - scientifical is officially in my lexicon. JGLR, please know that I do not use it to ridicule you but b/c it so accurately catches the tenor of so much of what is proposed as true scientific doctrine. (It's like science, but it's not! - it's scientifical).

Ok, that makes sense then.

hehe...Scientifical

[mheisig]

JGLOTR, I point this out as something that's hopefully helpful and not seen as an attack, but you kind of shot yourself in the foot in the very first post of this thread.

Saying that you watched a one hour video by a couple of college kids and you now feel "duped and violated" doesn't say much for your reasoning ability. To be quite honest I think you're a perfectly reasonable individual and have had many worthwhile posts on this thread, but this one didn't start out too well.

It's along the lines of me coming on here and saying "Hey guys, I just read Humpty Dumpty and I am OUTRAGED at how all the King's men couldn't put him back together! I feel totally misled and lied to about their egg-fixing ability!"

I guess the point is, don't have your world view and opinion on the government and country shaped by a one hour video by some college kids which has been decried and debunked around the internet almost nonstop.

Personally I think there are some major holes in the official story and you're right to be skeptical and ask questions, but give it some due diligence and make an informed decision from the facts available to you. And find a better source than some pretentious college kids who lack basic PR and debate skills.

Again, this is no indictment of you - I think you just got off on the wrong foot, people made some immature and inflammatory comments toward you, and the whole thing got out of hand. No reason to waste 1,000+ posts and the relationships with people on the site over this.

[SmootSmack]

Well said Mheisig.

[Schneed10]

I think it's nice that you guys were able to come to a rational discussion after all that. But this was a case where you were better off not starting this thread.

Even though people have managed to be civil and rational to you doesn't mean they've come away with a very high opinion of you. You've done that to yourself. It's going to be tough for me to take just about anything you say seriously from now on, because I'm always going to think back and say this was the same guy who bought into Loose Change, so why should I care what he thinks about a free agency acquisition?

Reputation matters. Think before you post.

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think it's nice that you guys were able to come to a rational discussion after all that. But this was a case where you were better off not starting this thread.

Even though people have managed to be civil and rational to you doesn't mean they've come away with a very high opinion of you. You've done that to yourself. It's going to be tough for me to take just about anything you say seriously from now on, because I'm always going to think back and say this was the same guy who bought into Loose Change, so why should I care what he thinks about a free agency acquisition?

Reputation matters. Think before you post.

I agree with a lot of what you said. By posting my second post, I open myself up to abuse because I didn't take the time to research what I had just watched. That's understood.

Like I said before, I've been here for a while and really like it here, I just felt that making of the poster and mot the post in this instance may have been a little overboard. The fact that you, as a Moderator, called me a moron just kinda irked me. Like I said to SS, I agree that Mods DEF have the right to speak their minds, but they should also be aware that A LOT of people that visit this site look up to the mods as the standard. I just think that coming out and flat-out calling me a moron was a little much to lay on a guy who simply bought into something he saw for 30 minutes before he actually took the time to research it.

Again, there's no hard feelings towards anyone and I apologize for the crude statements I made.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I think it's nice that you guys were able to come to a rational discussion after all that. But this was a case where you were better off not starting this thread.

Even though people have managed to be civil and rational to you doesn't mean they've come away with a very high opinion of you. You've done that to yourself. It's going to be tough for me to take just about anything you say seriously from now on, because I'm always going to think back and say this was the same guy who bought into Loose Change, so why should I care what he thinks about a free agency acquisition?

Reputation matters. Think before you post.

And the point of your post is?????? To try to get one last jab in maybe?
Everyone makes mistakes Schneed, everyone at one point or another has been duped. It's human nature.
To not take him seriously in future threads because of this thread shows more about the person you are than the person he is.
"Everyone makes mistakes, the bigger man let's those mistakes go."

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by jsarno

And the point of your post is?????? To try to get one last jab in maybe?
Everyone makes mistakes Schneed, everyone at one point or another has been duped. It's human nature.
To not take him seriously in future threads because of this thread shows more about the person you are than the person he is.
"Everyone makes mistakes, the bigger man let's those mistakes go."

Wow. I am actually being defended here? Holy smokes Batman! Lol....Schneed's alright. If he was to take this moment of retardation on my part and generalize my entire life over one event, thats fine. If that's case then his opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway.

It's just bad to mix politics and/or religion with sports. Never turns out good.