-- Zorn to Talk to Lloyd Before Cutting Him --

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

The problem is he IS a locker room distraction and a malcontent.

He's had blowouts with coaches and players.

And members of the staff at Redskins Park.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jdlea

I don't see what the idea is behind releasing. I don't like him anymore than anyone else, but this guy has 0 trade value and will cost us money to cut. So, what's the point of getting rid of him. I don't believe that he's a cancer, so addition by subtraction doesn't really make sense to me. I feel like, we have to keep him and give him a shot to pick it up. Maybe he'll fit in a little better with Zorn's offense? Doubtful, but if he can become any kind of contributor, it would be nice.

Cutting him today prevents us from having to give him any more money for this season and beyond.

We cut him right now, we eat the hit now, and he's off the books by 2009. We wait a year, and he stays on the books for 2009, and we paid him in full for this year.

Yes, the net cap hit is lessened every year we keep him on, but every year we keep him on he gets to see more and more of his contract value.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Cutting him today prevents us from having to give him any more money for this season and beyond.

We cut him right now, we eat the hit now, and he's off the books by 2009. We wait a year, and he stays on the books for 2009, and we paid him in full for this year.

Yes, the net cap hit is lessened every year we keep him on, but every year we keep him on he gets to see more and more of his contract value.

Yeah, and on the bolded part, everyone think about your workplace. Imagine there's a guy in your office with a bad attitude, doesn't work hard, sucks to be around, and doesn't do his job well. And he gets paid a ton more than you.

How do you feel about him? How do you feel about your employer for keeping him around?

Keeping a highly paid player who underachieves essentially sends the message to the team that you're validating him. It sends the message that the team has no sense of justice or fairness. Players don't want to hear that his cap charge is prohibitive to cutting him, they just can't stand that he's getting paid that much to suck that bad.

Getting rid of him helps to eliminate a source of bad team morale from the locker room. He's had enough chances, he deserves to be cut, and the Redskins will be better off in both the near term and the long term if they do it now.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah, and on the bolded part, everyone think about your workplace. Imagine there's a guy in your office with a bad attitude, doesn't work hard, sucks to be around, and doesn't do his job well. And he gets paid a ton more than you.

How do you feel about him? How do you feel about your employer for keeping him around?

Keeping a highly paid player who underachieves essentially sends the message to the team that you're validating him. It sends the message that the team has no sense of justice or fairness. Players don't want to hear that his cap charge is prohibitive to cutting him, they just can't stand that he's getting paid that much to suck that bad.

Getting rid of him helps to eliminate a source of bad team morale from the locker room. He's had enough chances, he deserves to be cut, and the Redskins will be better off in both the near term and the long term if they do it now.

Now consider whether or not there are salary cap implications at your job...

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yes, the net cap hit is lessened every year we keep him on, but every year we keep him on he gets to see more and more of his contract value.

So cut him out of spite? Because he's not worth the money? Here's a thought...don't give a very mediocre player that much $$ in the first place. Is anyone really that surprised that this prima donna didn't work out? Now, as far as I can tell, you're stuck with him.

IMO, you don't start cutting guys and eating big cap hits when you're trying like hell to get under the cap. If they had something like 10 or 12 million in cap room, sure knock yourself out, cut the guy, but at this point I just don't think it makes any sense. Why waste the cap space.

I'm not saying he should ever get to cash another check from this team, but my opinion is that we don't have many other options. I mean, the guy can't possibly do any worse than he's done since he got here. He can only try to contribute...the problem with that is, I don't even know that he's interested in doing that.

So, I guess, what I'm saying is, the guy is a waste of money and I don't want him, but it doesn't make sense (financially) to cut him. Cutting him because he's an @$$hole isn't a good enough reason for me, especially not when you're already over the cap.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by jdlea

So cut him out of spite? Because he's not worth the money? Here's a thought...don't give a very mediocre player that much $$ in the first place. Is anyone really that surprised that this prima donna didn't work out? Now, as far as I can tell, you're stuck with him.

IMO, you don't start cutting guys and eating big cap hits when you're trying like hell to get under the cap. If they had something like 10 or 12 million in cap room, sure knock yourself out, cut the guy, but at this point I just don't think it makes any sense. Why waste the cap space.

I'm not saying he should ever get to cash another check from this team, but my opinion is that we don't have many other options. I mean, the guy can't possibly do any worse than he's done since he got here. He can only try to contribute...the problem with that is, I don't even know that he's interested in doing that.

So, I guess, what I'm saying is, the guy is a waste of money and I don't want him, but it doesn't make sense (financially) to cut him. Cutting him because he's an @$$hole isn't a good enough reason for me, especially not when you're already over the cap.

I'm preety sure we're under the cap actually

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jdlea

So cut him out of spite? Because he's not worth the money? Here's a thought...don't give a very mediocre player that much $$ in the first place. Is anyone really that surprised that this prima donna didn't work out? Now, as far as I can tell, you're stuck with him.

IMO, you don't start cutting guys and eating big cap hits when you're trying like hell to get under the cap. If they had something like 10 or 12 million in cap room, sure knock yourself out, cut the guy, but at this point I just don't think it makes any sense. Why waste the cap space.

I'm not saying he should ever get to cash another check from this team, but my opinion is that we don't have many other options. I mean, the guy can't possibly do any worse than he's done since he got here. He can only try to contribute...the problem with that is, I don't even know that he's interested in doing that.

So, I guess, what I'm saying is, the guy is a waste of money and I don't want him, but it doesn't make sense (financially) to cut him. Cutting him because he's an @$$hole isn't a good enough reason for me, especially not when you're already over the cap.

Okay, I was a bit unclear. Money is cap. Cap is money. Roster bonuses and base salaries are not guaranteed, and as the cap lingo goes are not earned until said player accomplishes the tasks.

Your points are correct from a purely 2008 perspective. It's tougher to create cap room in 2008 if we release B. Lloyd before his roster bonus than if we just leave him on the 53 man.

But that's not the whole picture. It's important to understand the factors of contract: 1) Money that has already been counted against the cap in previous years, 2) Money that is guaranteed/earned, but has not been counted against the salary cap yet, and 3) Money that is not guaranteed and has not been earned. Here's how B. Lloyd's contract breaks down:

Contract: 7 years/$29M/$5M SB/$5M SB in 2007/$1.8M RB in 2008

So the day after Lloyd signed the deal:

Money counted against cap (beginning of time-2005)= $0
Money that is guaranteed/earned= $10 million (both SBs)
Money that is unearned= $19 million

Here's those same specs one year later (March, 2007):

2006 Cap Number ~ 1.5 million
Money counted against the cap (2006)= $1.5 million
Money that is guaranteed/earned= $10.75 million (Signing bonuses plus 2006 earnings)
Money that is unearned= $18.25 million

And those specs right now (today)
2007 Cap Number ~ 2.33 million
Money counted against the cap (2006-2007)= $3.83 million (2006+2007 cap number)
Money that is guaranteed/earned= $11.50 million (SBs + 2006 base earnings + 2007 base earnings)
Money that is unearned= $17.50 million

Remember how Redskin contracts are backloaded? Basically, if we let Lloyd play this year, we owe him not only his $853,000 base salary, but also a $1.8 million roster bonus. Now, we never have to pay either of those if we cut Lloyd today, and we save the $17.50 million that is unearned. If Lloyd is still on the roster a week from today, his roster bonus becomes earned and that $17.50 million becomes $15.70 million. If we leave him on through the season, that number becomes $14.90 million.

Eventually, that number keeps dwindling until it becomes zero, and the contract expires. The point is this: the sooner you get him off your roster, the less he takes off the total value of your cap.

And yes, it's a $7 million cap hit to cut him before the bonus is due, but you are paying $7 million against this year's cap, saving $4,238,000 instantly, and $17.50 million in total contract value. So it's definately in our benefit to eat it now, much like we did with Arch last season.

The only way a team can prevent a player from earning unearned money is to release him, period.

[Daseal]

I still haven't given up hope on Lloyd. I'd like to see him actually get an opportunity. All it can take is a change of scenery/staff for a whole new player to come out. We've seen it many times before.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I still haven't given up hope on Lloyd. I'd like to see him actually get an opportunity. All it can take is a change of scenery/staff for a whole new player to come out. We've seen it many times before.

Except he got that change of scenery/staff when he came here. How many more changes of scenery/staff should he get?

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I still haven't given up hope on Lloyd. I'd like to see him actually get an opportunity. All it can take is a change of scenery/staff for a whole new player to come out. We've seen it many times before.

I'm having trouble recalling an example of a guy with these stats:

2007
2 rec 14 yds

2006
23 rec 365 yds

having a dramatic turnaround. He's not a talent like Moss or Owens, he's never produced like either of those guys in the past, the point of cutting him is two-fold. Get him out of the locker room and get his contract off the books so the Skins don't have to carry dead cap in 2009. If they wanted, they could cut him post June 1 (or designate him as a June 1 cut and release earlier - right?) and carry the hit over two years. The guy's got to go.

Oh, and not to mention he is also a liability on the field. Remember that deep pass against Arizona last year where he kind of just fell down and the ball was picked?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I still haven't given up hope on Lloyd. I'd like to see him actually get an opportunity. All it can take is a change of scenery/staff for a whole new player to come out. We've seen it many times before.

Brandon Lloyd Career:

2003 Opportunities: 30
Catch %: 47

2004 Opportunities: 89
Catch %: 48

2005 Opportunities: 109
Catch %: 34

2006 Opportunities: 58
Catch %: 41


2007 Opportunities: 6
Catch %: 33

Total Opportunities: 292
Catch %: 41

Can we stop defending Brandon Lloyd now? He's got a strong case at being the worst receiver ever to play professional football. I'm not exaggerating.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Brandon Lloyd Career:

2003 Opportunities: 30
Catch %: 47

2004 Opportunities: 89
Catch %: 48

2005 Opportunities: 109
Catch %: 34

2006 Opportunities: 58
Catch %: 41


2007 Opportunities: 6
Catch %: 33

Total Opportunities: 292
Catch %: 41

Can we stop defending Brandon Lloyd now? He's got a strong case at being the worst receiver ever to play professional football. I'm not exaggerating.

Good post. I just don't understand people that want to give him yet another chance.

Give it up. The writing is on the wall, the guy is a giant turd.

[freddyg12]

It just came to me; tell Vinny to get on the phone w/Al Davis. Send them Loyd & a 5th for Michael Huff! (See the M. Huff thread)

Maybe it would require a 3rd to make it work, or another lower pick. Al Davis w/his senility is our only hope to deal Loyd!

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

It just came to me; tell Vinny to get on the phone w/Al Davis. Send them Loyd & a 5th for Michael Huff! (See the M. Huff thread)

Maybe it would require a 3rd to make it work, or another lower pick. Al Davis w/his senility is our only hope to deal Loyd!

I know it is a scenario that won't come to pass, but just remember that both Chris Cooley and Derrick Dockery were both 3rd round picks ...

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

I know it is a scenario that won't come to pass, but just remember that both Chris Cooley and Derrick Dockery were both 3rd round picks ...

A 3rd round pick is typically high value, you definitely expect a guy to start eventually if you nab him in the 3rd.

I don't know just how much Huff is really worth, but for anybody to take Loyd you'd have to sweeten the deal somehow. I know this deal will never go down, but honestly think it's not bad even if we gave up a 3rd.