Kelly Washington

[Carnage]

No no, he might have been, but he played minor league ball for years, and was really pretty old in college, where he played very well. He was 22 year old freshman and when he went to the draft I think he was a 3rd rounder. He does have all the tools and has been on rosters with Chad Lewis and Randy Moss. Maybe he has learned how to play the position.

Originally Posted by skinsnut

Wasn't this guy a high pick?
I remember him from a few drafts back.
Kid has ability...my concern is signing another WR with "potential" aka Lloyd.

I'd say he could make a good #3 potentially...so thats the kinda money he should get.
Is it possible for a breakout year...certainly...but thats a gamble we already lost on.
If we are gunna gamble on that...I'd prefer we do it with someone in the draft that hasn't tried and failed yet.

I wouldn't be completely opposed if we gave him a modest deal for depth only.
I still say, if we go WR....we need a true #1...if we go depth...it should be with someone that knows the system or is a possesion receiver.

[celts32]

He has potential to be good but the skins have plenty of pretty good WR's...they need a great one.

[dmek25]

no. if we are looking at a project, lets give Mix every opportunity to be a good nfl receiver. if he cant cut it, then lets go elsewhere

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by dmek25

no. if we are looking at a project, lets give Mix every opportunity to be a good nfl receiver. if he cant cut it, then lets go elsewhere

I love the idea too...just not sure the Skins brass thinks so.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

You make it seem like the guy got buried on depth charts by no fault of his own. I realize the response will be that there were very talented WR corps in those places, but at some point you have to figure that the reason a guy has not been given an opportunity to produce is because he didn't deserve the opportunity. I'll put more weight on the decisions of personel guys in New England and (even) Cincinnatti. How often do you see guys produce nothing and then go to another team to become a star? You can think of a few (Ryan Grant, Ahman Green ... maybe Chester Taylor - and of course some back-up QB's - Hasselbeck, etc.) but typically guys that can produce and have ability get opportunities to do so.

Well, I agree when it comes to other positions, but wr's often do poorly to start due to lack of opportunity, there is a slew of them, here is a sample:
Terrell Owens - 35 - 520 - 4td (10 starts, 16 games)
Santana Moss - (first 2 years combined) 32 - 473 - 4td (1 start, 20 games)
Keenan McCardell - (first 3 years combined) 24 - 424 - 4td (6 starts, 21 games)
Rod Smith - (first 2 years combined) 22 - 389 - 3td (2 starts, 26 games)
Steve Smith - 10 - 154 - 0td (1 start, 15 games)
Jimmy Smith - (first 2 years combined) 22 - 288 - 3td (4 starts, 23 games)
Cris Carter - (first 2 years combined) 44 - 845 - 8td (16 starts, 25 games)
Tim Brown - (first 4 years combined) 98 - 1552 - 13 tds (2 starts, 49 games)
(avg. of 24.5 - 388 - 3.25td a year)
Mark Clayton (dolphins) 6 - 114 - 1td (0 starts, 14 games)

I think you get my point about the amount of people...they all have 1 thing in common, they were not given an opportunity right away, and when they were given the opportunity, they took advantage. Washington has been buried in the depth charts, it's hard to overcome that. If given the chance I'm sure he'll succeed. He has the talent.
ps- Washington went to New England to be one of the top two wr's, he was then buried in the depth charts due to New England's sudden desire for high priced wr's. You say he doesn't deserve the chance, but why? I would agree with you if he was ever given the chance, but he hasn't been. Being buried behind CJ, and Houzyourmomma, then Randy Moss, Welker, and Stallworth is nothing to be upset about.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Well, I agree when it comes to other positions, but wr's often do poorly to start due to lack of opportunity, there is a slew of them, here is a sample:
Terrell Owens - 35 - 520 - 4td (10 starts, 16 games)
Santana Moss - (first 2 years combined) 32 - 473 - 4td (1 start, 20 games)
Keenan McCardell - (first 3 years combined) 24 - 424 - 4td (6 starts, 21 games)
Rod Smith - (first 2 years combined) 22 - 389 - 3td (2 starts, 26 games)
Steve Smith - 10 - 154 - 0td (1 start, 15 games)
Jimmy Smith - (first 2 years combined) 22 - 288 - 3td (4 starts, 23 games)
Cris Carter - (first 2 years combined) 44 - 845 - 8td (16 starts, 25 games)
Tim Brown - (first 4 years combined) 98 - 1552 - 13 tds (2 starts, 49 games)
(avg. of 24.5 - 388 - 3.25td a year)
Mark Clayton (dolphins) 6 - 114 - 1td (0 starts, 14 games)

I think you get my point about the amount of people...they all have 1 thing in common, they were not given an opportunity right away, and when they were given the opportunity, they took advantage. Washington has been buried in the depth charts, it's hard to overcome that. If given the chance I'm sure he'll succeed. He has the talent.
ps- Washington went to New England to be one of the top two wr's, he was then buried in the depth charts due to New England's sudden desire for high priced wr's. You say he doesn't deserve the chance, but why? I would agree with you if he was ever given the chance, but he hasn't been. Being buried behind CJ, and Houzyourmomma, then Randy Moss, Welker, and Stallworth is nothing to be upset about.

There is an iron rule in Fantasy Football (which has some merit actually) that a wide receiver typically doesn't "get it" until his third season, which often is a break out year (if a break out year is going to come). After two mediocre seasons (30 catches, 300 yards) Washington faded into oblivion with 19 catches for 216 yards over the past three seasons (B. Lloyd type numbers). His third season break out was a third season fizzle. I would be willing to bet quite a bit that he'll never amount to anything more than an NFL backup given his lack of production through five full NFL seasons. It just doesn't happen.

Just because I'm contrarian by nature and you marshalled some stats to support your argument, I'll put the third year rule to the test with your examples.

Terrell Owens: You state his rookie year stats (better than anything Washington has ever done). His third season he had 1,097 yards and 14 tds.

Santana Moss: He had injury issues his first year and didn't play at all, which seriously effects your two year split. It is convenient for you to stop after two years because in his third season he had 74 catches, 1,105 yds, and 10 tds.

Keenan McCardell: Sort of a special case since he was a 12th round pick who spent his first season on the Redskins practice squad and then kicked around the league until finding a home in Jacksonville. Even if we count that first year, though, by the time he had 5 years experience in the NFL (the same time Washington has been in the league) he already produced better numbers than Washington ever has (56 catches, 709 yards, 4 tds in year five ... if we don't count that practice squad year, then McCardell's fifth season saw him catch 85 balls for 1,129 yards, and 3 tds). Even though it took him a bit longer given his low draft status, he had "gotten it" by the time he was Washington's age (actually younger than Washington given that KW played minor league baseball for several years before going to Knoxville).

Rod Smith: Again, you minipulate the statistics to serve your purposes. Sure, the undrafted Rod Smith (who played QB in college at Missouri Southern) did not do much in his first two seasons. But in his crucial thirds season he had 70 catches, 1,180 yards, and 12 tds.

Steve Smith: Again, the third season was key. 88 catches, 1,110 yards, 7 tds.

Jimmy Smith: A bit different in that he didn't have a third year breakout. By the time he had 5 years of service, though, (again, same time Washington has had) he had two 1,000 yard seasons (83, 1,244 yds in year four; 82, 1,324 in year five).

Chris Carter: At least he caught TDs, more than you can say for Washington. In his third season he had 11 tds (19 through three years, 27 through five years ... in the same period of time Washington has scored 9 times).

Tim Brown: A much better example for your purposes since he was a very late developer (though he was hurt his entire 2nd season). Even missing an entire year, through his first five seasons he had 1,352 more yards than Washington has in the same amount of time. Plus, he was a Heismann winner and top three pick ... a pedigree Washington cannot match.

Mark Clayton: Not sure why you would use him for your argument. Sure he didn't have a Randy Moss type rookie season, but in year two he had 73 catches, 1,389 yards, and 18 tds. In his third season he dropped in production, but still had 70 catches for 996 yards.

The point is, and what all of your own examples demonstrate, is that if players have not demonstrated that they are viable players through five whole years of service (and most much sooner than that) then they likely will never be a player. Hell, Anthony Mix has as much chance of developing into a legit threat as Washington does (maybe more). Washington has been in the NFL for 5 years and has never produced more than 378 yards in a season (his rookie year) and in that crucial third season he had 10 catches for 101 yards. You can say he was 'buried' on the depth chart, but good players find a way to get on the field and NFL coaches (even Bengals coaches) can recognize talent and a good player will show himself long before his 6th NFL season.

Plus (and despite what it might seem, I don't have a personal vendetta against Kelley Washington ... though his team did knock my high school out of the playoffs way back in the mid-1990s ... before my time though) Washington spent his fifth season in the most prolific offense in NFL history and did not catch a single pass. Hell, Brandon Lloyd caught 2 balls. Jabar Gaffney had 36 catches, 449 yards, and 5 tds ... and Kelley Washington did not catch a single pass. He couldn't find his way on the field even ahead of Jabar Gaffney? And now the Pats think so much of him that they are releasing him a year after giving him a decent sized contract? If that is not a major indictment I don't know what is.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

There is an iron rule in Fantasy Football (which has some merit actually) that a wide receiver typically doesn't "get it" until his third season, which often is a break out year (if a break out year is going to come). After two mediocre seasons (30 catches, 300 yards) Washington faded into oblivion with 19 catches for 216 yards over the past three seasons (B. Lloyd type numbers). His third season break out was a third season fizzle. I would be willing to bet quite a bit that he'll never amount to anything more than an NFL backup given his lack of production through five full NFL seasons. It just doesn't happen.

Just because I'm contrarian by nature and you marshalled some stats to support your argument, I'll put the third year rule to the test with your examples.

Terrell Owens: You state his rookie year stats (better than anything Washington has ever done). His third season he had 1,097 yards and 14 tds.

Santana Moss: He had injury issues his first year and didn't play at all, which seriously effects your two year split. It is convenient for you to stop after two years because in his third season he had 74 catches, 1,105 yds, and 10 tds.

Keenan McCardell: Sort of a special case since he was a 12th round pick who spent his first season on the Redskins practice squad and then kicked around the league until finding a home in Jacksonville. Even if we count that first year, though, by the time he had 5 years experience in the NFL (the same time Washington has been in the league) he already produced better numbers than Washington ever has (56 catches, 709 yards, 4 tds in year five ... if we don't count that practice squad year, then McCardell's fifth season saw him catch 85 balls for 1,129 yards, and 3 tds). Even though it took him a bit longer given his low draft status, he had "gotten it" by the time he was Washington's age (actually younger than Washington given that KW played minor league baseball for several years before going to Knoxville).

Rod Smith: Again, you minipulate the statistics to serve your purposes. Sure, the undrafted Rod Smith (who played QB in college at Missouri Southern) did not do much in his first two seasons. But in his crucial thirds season he had 70 catches, 1,180 yards, and 12 tds.

Steve Smith: Again, the third season was key. 88 catches, 1,110 yards, 7 tds.

Jimmy Smith: A bit different in that he didn't have a third year breakout. By the time he had 5 years of service, though, (again, same time Washington has had) he had two 1,000 yard seasons (83, 1,244 yds in year four; 82, 1,324 in year five).

Chris Carter: At least he caught TDs, more than you can say for Washington. In his third season he had 11 tds (19 through three years, 27 through five years ... in the same period of time Washington has scored 9 times).

Tim Brown: A much better example for your purposes since he was a very late developer (though he was hurt his entire 2nd season). Even missing an entire year, through his first five seasons he had 1,352 more yards than Washington has in the same amount of time. Plus, he was a Heismann winner and top three pick ... a pedigree Washington cannot match.

Mark Clayton: Not sure why you would use him for your argument. Sure he didn't have a Randy Moss type rookie season, but in year two he had 73 catches, 1,389 yards, and 18 tds. In his third season he dropped in production, but still had 70 catches for 996 yards.

The point is, and what all of your own examples demonstrate, is that if players have not demonstrated that they are viable players through five whole years of service (and most much sooner than that) then they likely will never be a player. Hell, Anthony Mix has as much chance of developing into a legit threat as Washington does (maybe more). Washington has been in the NFL for 5 years and has never produced more than 378 yards in a season (his rookie year) and in that crucial third season he had 10 catches for 101 yards. You can say he was 'buried' on the depth chart, but good players find a way to get on the field and NFL coaches (even Bengals coaches) can recognize talent and a good player will show himself long before his 6th NFL season.

Plus (and despite what it might seem, I don't have a personal vendetta against Kelley Washington ... though his team did knock my high school out of the playoffs way back in the mid-1990s ... before my time though) Washington spent his fifth season in the most prolific offense in NFL history and did not catch a single pass. Hell, Brandon Lloyd caught 2 balls. Jabar Gaffney had 36 catches, 449 yards, and 5 tds ... and Kelley Washington did not catch a single pass. He couldn't find his way on the field even ahead of Jabar Gaffney? And now the Pats think so much of him that they are releasing him a year after giving him a decent sized contract? If that is not a major indictment I don't know what is.

I appreciate your desire to look into the stats, however, you missed two crucial points.
1- You mention that Moss was hurt, but never once mentioned the two years that Washington was hurt. 05- 7 games, 06- 5 games. 05 was that all important 3rd season. I absolutely agree with the third year rule. While it isn't always accurate, it usually is a good rule of thumb. So how could Washington succeed when he was injured?
2- The point of pulling all those guys out is to show that none of them had a tougher road to get an opportunity. None of them had to pass wr's like Chad Johnson, TJ Houshavanilla, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, or Dante Stallworth. You mention Jabar Gaffney, but did not mention that he already knew "the patriots way". The patriots have been very vocal about the fact that Washington was a great special teams player, but I find it hard to beleive that he could possibly pass any of those guys given what the Patriots were trying to accomplish.
We could argue this all day, but it boils down to this, you never know what a guy can do until he's given a chance. Due to the fact that Washington has not been able to get his chance, why are you so eager to dismiss him? You could argue that he should have created his own chance, however, when you have to pass future hall of famers, and a couple damn good wr's, how can you get that shot? Especially when injuries to those players were not a factor?

[SmootSmack]

Back with the Patriots

Washington agrees with Pats - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

So I guess this can be locked now