BitterGate

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by saden1

A 29 year old enthusiastic young chap like you is just what they are looking for to serve. I encourage you to join and fight for what you believe in. I promise to send you care packages every month.

Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.

I agree with you to a point FRPLG. We are a spineless society, in that we have fought a war with the children of the poor and paid for it with money borrowed from China. Had we been asked to make any sacrifices at any point I have a feeling the American people would have rejected this war. Not for any principled reason, but just because they don't like sacrifices. Now with an economy spiraling into recession, a depleted army, and a 3 billion dollar per day bill we can no longer afford to float, lets see how many people will be willing to actually make sacrifices to pay for this war effort. I'm guessing not many.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Where did I say I believe in the war? I said we need to stop being pansies asses about this. Either we should be doing this or we shouldn't. I didn't take a serious stand on that. But I did take a stand on basing our decision in any way on how difficult or how long it has taken. It is wrong to do so. I firmly believe that.

The fact that you think how long the war is waged is irrelevant shocks me. You may not believe in the war but you lack vision and empathy. Vision required to see that there can't be a happy ending to the war no matter when it actually ends. Empathy required to identify with the soldiers who are serving multiple tours of duty, 15 month deployments and face stop loss.

I am spineless.

[70Chip]

I had thought the condescending "sigh" was discredited at the first Bush/Gore debate, Why it persists on the internet as a riposte eludes me.

The reason this statement is so damaging to Obama is that it exposes him as the candidate of the extreme left Move On/George Soros crowd that the MSM wants to pretend that he isn't. The only successful Democrat of the last 40 yars ran as a centrist, yet once again they are on the verge of nominating the most extreme candidate available. They can't help themselves.

His statement re-iterates a notion first articulated by Marx (Karl not Chico) which has been described as "false consciousness". The idea was recently re-packaged as a book callled "What's the matter with Kansas?" It's an intellectual device that Leftists use to explain why the working class doesn't support them. The proletariat is in denial, you see, owing to the dilema of their material circumstance. I suspect Obama was exposed to this idea by the more recent book (or a synapsis of it in some left wing journal) rather than by Marx himself. The only people that actually read Marx anymore are hopeless reactionaries such as myself.

More Reading: Dissent Magazine

[saden1]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I had thought the condescending "sigh" was discredited at the first Bush/Gore debate, Why it persists on the internet as a riposte eludes me.

It's a sigh of frustration not condescension. Regardless, the point still stands.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

The fact that you think how long the war is waged is irrelevant shocks me. You may not believe in the war but you lack vision and empathy. Vision required to see that there can't be a happy ending to the war no matter when it actually ends. Empathy required to identify with the soldiers who are serving multiple tours of duty, 15 month deployments and face stop loss.

I am spineless.

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

There is a huge difference between preemptive war and a war with broad support that doesn't consist of just us and the "coalition of the willing." The fact is we are all alone, nothing has changed in 5 years and nothing seems to be changing. You give me a good proposal for ending the war in good terms and I'm there with you. I suspect once the dipshit in the white house and his heir apparent are out of the picture maybe we can get some international help that allows us to walk away. We might actually start talking to people, imagine that?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by saden1

There is a huge difference between preemptive war and a war with broad support that doesn't consist of just us and the "coalition of the willing." The fact is we are all alone, nothing has changed in 5 years and nothing seems to be changing. You give me a good proposal for ending the war in good terms and I'm there with you. I suspect once the dipshit in the white house and his heir apparent are out of the picture maybe we can get some international help that allows us to walk away. We might actually start talking to people, imagine that?

I think the administration has, to some degree, realized that it's "you're either with us or against us" mentality isn't working. Privately, our government has been negotiating with the Iranians to stabilize Iraq. That's a big step in the right direction.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I think the administration has, to some degree, realized that it's "you're either with us or against us" mentality isn't working. Privately, our government has been negotiating with the Iranians to stabilize Iraq. That's a big step in the right direction.

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

Here's one link

U.S., Iran Plan Talks on Pacifying Iraq - washingtonpost.com

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I agree with this. Where did you hear about these negotiations?

I first heard about the talks several months ago on one of those Sunday morning news shows. Since then, I've read about it numerous times. Sorry I didn't post a link.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Let me preface my remarks with the following. My father is a Korean immigrant. Many of my family members were executed by advancing communist forces in the weeks following North Korea's invasion of South Korea. Many of my family members' lives were saved by American troops.

In light of the above, it should come as no surprise that I shudder when I hear Americans talk about how we need to abandon the Iraqi people. Those same people who are clamoring for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq are oftentimes the very same individuals who are clamoring for us to get involved in Darfur and similar humanitarian crises. So let me get this straight, the U.S. invaded Iraq, left Iraqi society in tatters, and are watching genocide/ethnic cleansing occur, but we need to leave. Conversely, the U.S. did not cause the mess in Darfur yet we have an obligation to end the genocide there. When someone explains that mental clusterf**k to me, I'll rest easy.

Regardless of who started the war and why, we have an obligation to do our utmost to fix the messes we've made. Leaving Iraq and the thousands of persons who have stuck their necks out in working with would be a disgraceful and cowardly act.

End threadjack.

I used to work with a guy who escaped from Cambodia and the stories he would tell me were unbelievable. Most of us only experience danger at the movies. Then you meet someone who lived a movie and your first reaction is to call bullshit. Then you think, "This guy's a database specialist that makes twice what I do and drives a brand new Lexus. He has no need to impress me."

Regardless of what happens in this election, I think we will honor our committment to Iraq. If the Democrats attain power, they will maintain some presence and the press will dutifully change the subject so that Baraq or Hillary don't suffer for the fact that they end up doing the same thing McCain will do. Our troops in Iraq will get about as much media attention as our troops in Korea or Bosnia or Germany. The thing that's amazing is that the people who are really in the know all understand that this is the game. They rant and rave for Bush to do something (withdraw) that they would never ask a Democrat to do. I'm talking about NBC, ABC, CBS, The NYT, the LAT, WaPo. If I could bet on these things, my troubles would be over very quickly. I can see it as though it's already happened.