Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)

[#56fanatic]

I would love to have a playmaker of CJ ability, but honestly, 1 first rounder is too much for a receiver that is 30 years old. He is not in his "prime" anymore. he may have 1 good/great year. But, to get him if the trade went through we would have to restructure his contract, give him 15-20 million guaranteed and a 6 year deal. It honestly doesn't make a ton of sense to that. If you are going to go after someone like that, then go after a Roy Williams who is younger and may have a couple more years than Chad has. Plus, I thought we wanted a BIG receiver, chad is what 6' maybe 6'1, plus the dude is a head case. I just dont see it meshing well with our locker room. He is twice as bad and Lloyd and no body on the team could stand his stupid ass.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by #56fanatic

I would love to have a playmaker of CJ ability, but honestly, 1 first rounder is too much for a receiver that is 30 years old. He is not in his "prime" anymore. he may have 1 good/great year. But, to get him if the trade went through we would have to restructure his contract, give him 15-20 million guaranteed and a 6 year deal. It honestly doesn't make a ton of sense to that. If you are going to go after someone like that, then go after a Roy Williams who is younger and may have a couple more years than Chad has. Plus, I thought we wanted a BIG receiver, chad is what 6' maybe 6'1, plus the dude is a head case. I just dont see it meshing well with our locker room. He is twice as bad and Lloyd and no body on the team could stand his stupid ass.

Wide Receivers are not running backs. Elite players do not fall off the face of the planet at 30 so I think this oft repeated argument is bogus. Let's examine.

WR production after 30 -

Jerry Rice:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 12.5
1,000 yard seasons - 8 (including best season - 1,848 yards, 15 tds in 1995 at the age of 32/33)
Jerry Rice

Chris Carter:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 7
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,274 yards, 9 tds in 2000 at age 34/35)
Cris Carter

Art Monk:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 8
1,000 yard seasons - 2 of the 5 he had in his career (including 1,049 yards, 8 tds in 1991 at age 33/34)
Art Monk

Tim Brown:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 9
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,344 yards, 6 tds in 1999 at age 33 - last 1,000 yard season came in 2001 at age 35)

Marvin Harrison:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 6 and counting
1,000 yard seasons - 5 and counting (including 1,386 yards, 12 tds in 2006 at age 34)

Terrell Owens:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 4 and counting
1,000 yard season - 3 and counting (would have been 4 if not for getting Keyshawned; included 1,355 yards, 15 tds in 2007 at age 33/34)

Randy Moss:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 1
1,000 yard seasons - 1 (including 1,493 yards, 23 tds in 2007 at age 30)

So let's not bring up the age argument when talking about Chad Johnson. It is a phantom argument with no basis in fact. If we use historical precedent as a guide it is likely more accurate to say Johnson has 5-8 good/great years left and that he is actually in the midst of his 'prime'.

[Skinny Tee]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Wide Receivers are not running backs. Elite players do not fall off the face of the planet at 30 so I think this oft repeated argument is bogus. Let's examine.

WR production after 30 -

Jerry Rice:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 12.5
1,000 yard seasons - 8 (including best season - 1,848 yards, 15 tds in 1995 at the age of 32/33)
Jerry Rice

Chris Carter:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 7
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,274 yards, 9 tds in 2000 at age 34/35)
Cris Carter

Art Monk:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 8
1,000 yard seasons - 2 of the 5 he had in his career (including 1,049 yards, 8 tds in 1991 at age 33/34)
Art Monk

Tim Brown:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 9
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,344 yards, 6 tds in 1999 at age 33 - last 1,000 yard season came in 2001 at age 35)

Marvin Harrison:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 6 and counting
1,000 yard seasons - 5 and counting (including 1,386 yards, 12 tds in 2006 at age 34)

Terrell Owens:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 4 and counting
1,000 yard season - 3 and counting (would have been 4 if not for getting Keyshawned; included 1,355 yards, 15 tds in 2007 at age 33/34)

Randy Moss:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 1
1,000 yard seasons - 1 (including 1,493 yards, 23 tds in 2007 at age 30)

So let's not bring up the age argument when talking about Chad Johnson. It is a phantom argument with no basis in fact. If we use historical precedent as a guide it is likely more accurate to say Johnson has 5-8 good/great years left and that he is actually in the midst of his 'prime'.

Age isn't the issue it's the cost, and not in dollars. No one doubts CJ is going to play in well in the NFL for while. Its the price you're going to pay to have him as a Redskin and the deteriment to the team's future in lost draft picks.

Make a list of high priced free agents that the Redskins have acquired and write their stats next it. You'll have the reverse argument.

Right now I think it's better for the team to build Redskins and not buy them. Gibbs had that outlook on the franchise when he made sure that the Redskins had all their picks for the 2008 draft.

[#56fanatic]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Wide Receivers are not running backs. Elite players do not fall off the face of the planet at 30 so I think this oft repeated argument is bogus. Let's examine.

WR production after 30 -

Jerry Rice:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 12.5
1,000 yard seasons - 8 (including best season - 1,848 yards, 15 tds in 1995 at the age of 32/33)
Jerry Rice

Chris Carter:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 7
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,274 yards, 9 tds in 2000 at age 34/35)
Cris Carter

Art Monk:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 8
1,000 yard seasons - 2 of the 5 he had in his career (including 1,049 yards, 8 tds in 1991 at age 33/34)
Art Monk

Tim Brown:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 9
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,344 yards, 6 tds in 1999 at age 33 - last 1,000 yard season came in 2001 at age 35)

Marvin Harrison:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 6 and counting
1,000 yard seasons - 5 and counting (including 1,386 yards, 12 tds in 2006 at age 34)

Terrell Owens:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 4 and counting
1,000 yard season - 3 and counting (would have been 4 if not for getting Keyshawned; included 1,355 yards, 15 tds in 2007 at age 33/34)

Randy Moss:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 1
1,000 yard seasons - 1 (including 1,493 yards, 23 tds in 2007 at age 30)

So let's not bring up the age argument when talking about Chad Johnson. It is a phantom argument with no basis in fact. If we use historical precedent as a guide it is likely more accurate to say Johnson has 5-8 good/great years left and that he is actually in the midst of his 'prime'.

I agree there are some players that play at a high level for several years after the age of 30 - but these may be exceptions not the rule. The players you gave as an example are very good examples. thanks.

the age was one of my aguements, not the whole thing. The other two about money and overall attitude are hard to ignore. If we have adopted this new philosphy of building with draft picks and not overspending on aging players - this doesn't fall into that catagory.

I agree we would not draft a WR in the 1st or 2nd round with the ability of a chad johnson, but at what price? I just think the cons out weigh the pros in this situation. We have good chemistry, an overall good group of guys that formed a family. This clown doesn't fit that in my opinion. Its all about Chad, no one else. Chad wants to win and more importantly pad his stats. If we win, I am sure he will say and do the right things, but what if we hit a tough stretch?? I think he will be more of a distraction than an addition. the money - do we really need to give out 15-20 million guaranteed to this guy??

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Wide Receivers are not running backs. Elite players do not fall off the face of the planet at 30 so I think this oft repeated argument is bogus. Let's examine.

WR production after 30 -

Jerry Rice:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 12.5
1,000 yard seasons - 8 (including best season - 1,848 yards, 15 tds in 1995 at the age of 32/33)
Jerry Rice

Chris Carter:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 7
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,274 yards, 9 tds in 2000 at age 34/35)
Cris Carter

Art Monk:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 8
1,000 yard seasons - 2 of the 5 he had in his career (including 1,049 yards, 8 tds in 1991 at age 33/34)
Art Monk

Tim Brown:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 9
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,344 yards, 6 tds in 1999 at age 33 - last 1,000 yard season came in 2001 at age 35)

Marvin Harrison:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 6 and counting
1,000 yard seasons - 5 and counting (including 1,386 yards, 12 tds in 2006 at age 34)

Terrell Owens:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 4 and counting
1,000 yard season - 3 and counting (would have been 4 if not for getting Keyshawned; included 1,355 yards, 15 tds in 2007 at age 33/34)

Randy Moss:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 1
1,000 yard seasons - 1 (including 1,493 yards, 23 tds in 2007 at age 30)

So let's not bring up the age argument when talking about Chad Johnson. It is a phantom argument with no basis in fact. If we use historical precedent as a guide it is likely more accurate to say Johnson has 5-8 good/great years left and that he is actually in the midst of his 'prime'.

Well if you look at the history of WR's in general I bet your wrong. You listed 7 WR's and there are how many that have played the game in that time span? I could go in and pick a ton in that span who's # that dropped off after 30. Its a crap shot and you think he is good for another 4 to 5 years (which I think he is) you just don't know when the body is going to turn on a player. I'm not saying your wrong I just don't think history is on your side in this situation.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Well if you look at the history of WR's in general I bet your wrong. You listed 7 WR's and there are how many that have played the game in that time span? I could go in and pick a ton in that span who's # that dropped off after 30. Its a crap shot and you think he is good for another 4 to 5 years (which I think he is) you just don't know when the body is going to turn on a player. I'm not saying your wrong I just don't think history is on your side in this situation.

By the same token, SC could select a ton of WRs selected in the first 3 rounds of the NFL draft who will never (have never) achieved the sort of numbers in their entire career that Chad Johnson does in one season. So what's the bigger gamble? That Johnson will crash like Cris Dishman or that we're drafting the next Hart Lee Dykes?

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Well if you look at the history of WR's in general I bet your wrong. You listed 7 WR's and there are how many that have played the game in that time span? I could go in and pick a ton in that span who's # that dropped off after 30. Its a crap shot and you think he is good for another 4 to 5 years (which I think he is) you just don't know when the body is going to turn on a player. I'm not saying your wrong I just don't think history is on your side in this situation.

I agree with him. He is not going to do your research for you, you have to prove him wrong. Otherwise your argument holds no water because you listed no specifics. Give examples of Elite recievers who fell off at 30.

[SKINSnCANES]

Originally Posted by Angry

I agree with him. He is not going to do your research for you, you have to prove him wrong. Otherwise your argument holds no water because you listed no specifics. Give examples of Elite recievers who fell off at 30.

Ive got one, Mike Westbrook...he just didnt have the love for it anymore after 30!

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by SKINSnCANES

Ive got one, Mike Westbrook...he just didnt have the love for it anymore after 30!

You're right, he was in love with other things instead. Just ask Stephen Davis.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Well if you look at the history of WR's in general I bet your wrong. You listed 7 WR's and there are how many that have played the game in that time span? I could go in and pick a ton in that span who's # that dropped off after 30. Its a crap shot and you think he is good for another 4 to 5 years (which I think he is) you just don't know when the body is going to turn on a player. I'm not saying your wrong I just don't think history is on your side in this situation.

I think the money argument offered above by some is better than the age argument. I'm sure you could find plenty of WRs who dropped off after 30, but I bet they wouldn't have the credentials of Chad Johnson. The guy has 6 straight 1,000 yard seasons, has averaged 1,340 yards and 8 tds over that span (and not all those years were with Carson Palmer either before someone makes that argument). So you can't just cherry pick some WR, you have to come with perennial Pro Bowl talent whose performance dropped off after 30. I bet you will be hard pressed to find your examples.

Let's take it from 1990 and WRs with multiple Pro Bowl appearances (# of 1,000 yard seasons after 30 in parenthesis):

• Andre Reed (2, noted decline in 1999 age 35)
• Jerry Rice (see previous)
• Andre Rison (1)
• Sterling Sharpe (n/a career ending injury at age 29)
• Tim Brown (see previous)
• Gary Clark (0)
• Michael Irvin (2)
• Irving Fryar (4)
• Chris Carter (see previous)
• Herman Moore (0 - perhaps the best counter example available)
• Isaac Bruce (2 - perhaps another)
• Torry Holt (2 for 2)
• Jimmy Smith (7)
• Randy Moss (see previous)
• Eric Moulds (1)
• Terrell Owens (see previous)
• Hines Ward (0)
• Steve Smith (n/a not yet 30)
• Donald Driver (3 for 3)

I've probably spent too much time on this, but I think the point stands. It would stretch credulity to put some of the above with Johnson and, frankly, there are only a handful of guys over the past 15-20 years we probably could accurately compare him to. Isaac Bruce might provide the best counter example, but Jimmy Smith adds another example on the over 30 side. I'd say the point stands that elite receivers do not decline over 30 and that most continue to produce at a high level until around age 35, and some longer.

Dirtbag offers good reasons above for why this is, particularly the lower level of physical pounding a wide receiver takes vis-a-vis a running back.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Well if you look at the history of WR's in general I bet your wrong. You listed 7 WR's and there are how many that have played the game in that time span? I could go in and pick a ton in that span who's # that dropped off after 30. Its a crap shot and you think he is good for another 4 to 5 years (which I think he is) you just don't know when the body is going to turn on a player. I'm not saying your wrong I just don't think history is on your side in this situation.

go ahead and back it up with proof then. dominant WRs only though, not crap players that bounced around the league.

galloway is ancient and still had 1k seasons beyond 30 (at 36 i think).

it's not a crap shoot, WRs don't take much abuse, and he just showed that history is on his side. I mean, i understand not wanting to be wrong, but come on.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

Wide Receivers are not running backs. Elite players do not fall off the face of the planet at 30 so I think this oft repeated argument is bogus. Let's examine.

WR production after 30 -

Jerry Rice:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 12.5
1,000 yard seasons - 8 (including best season - 1,848 yards, 15 tds in 1995 at the age of 32/33)
Jerry Rice

Chris Carter:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 7
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,274 yards, 9 tds in 2000 at age 34/35)
Cris Carter

Art Monk:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 8
1,000 yard seasons - 2 of the 5 he had in his career (including 1,049 yards, 8 tds in 1991 at age 33/34)
Art Monk

Tim Brown:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 9
1,000 yard seasons - 6 (including 1,344 yards, 6 tds in 1999 at age 33 - last 1,000 yard season came in 2001 at age 35)

Marvin Harrison:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 6 and counting
1,000 yard seasons - 5 and counting (including 1,386 yards, 12 tds in 2006 at age 34)

Terrell Owens:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 4 and counting
1,000 yard season - 3 and counting (would have been 4 if not for getting Keyshawned; included 1,355 yards, 15 tds in 2007 at age 33/34)

Randy Moss:
Seasons played after turning 30 - 1
1,000 yard seasons - 1 (including 1,493 yards, 23 tds in 2007 at age 30)

So let's not bring up the age argument when talking about Chad Johnson. It is a phantom argument with no basis in fact. If we use historical precedent as a guide it is likely more accurate to say Johnson has 5-8 good/great years left and that he is actually in the midst of his 'prime'.

Lol, All people arguing production problems over 30 have been PWNED!!! Personally I was still trying to sort out my feelings on this one but that settles it.

With that said lets look at the facts. An elite Reciever might get 8 catches a game on average. On top of that he's usually getting hit by corners and safetys (though we all know how hard some safteys can hit) but still it's not like carrying the ball 20-30 times a game against D-Lineman and Linebackers, that in general hit harder, and on more then one occasion gang tackle.

Now a drop off in speed might be a concern but as other recievers have proven time and time again, as long as you can catch and understand route running then you can be an elite reciever.

My concern with Chad Johnson isn't the production. It's a possible shift away from the running game that will stunt the running games growth, sort of like New England lasat year. I mean seriously we'll have Cooley, Johnson, ARE, and Moss competing for catches. Not to mention the desire to use Portis and Sellers in the passing game. As long as we stick to the running game and add an O-lineman or two through the draft then I'm fine with the trade.

[hagams]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

My concern with Chad Johnson isn't the production. It's a possible shift away from the running game that will stunt the running games growth, sort of like New England lasat year. I mean seriously we'll have Cooley, Johnson, ARE, and Moss competing for catches. Not to mention the desire to use Portis and Sellers in the passing game. As long as we stick to the running game and add an O-lineman or two through the draft then I'm fine with the trade.

I also think this would impact the running game, but not only that the rest of our receivers. What happens when Chad isn't getting the ball, because Cooley is constantly open? That leaves us in the same boat the Bengals are in now. I presonally want him on the team, but it's going to be very fragile for a while. Also, would you want a first year coach to have to put up with Chad's outburst's? Or how about a QB who is finally coming into his own zone to have his go-to guy in his face if he's not feeding his stats enough? Now that I think of it, I'm 50/50 on Chad coming here.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

Never said that we should do it even though we are only losing one pick this year and one pick next year.

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by KB24

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

never said we should do it BUT dont make it seem like the pick we make will automatically pan out