Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)

[KB24]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

Never said that we should do it even though we are only losing one pick this year and one pick next year.

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by KB24

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

never said we should do it BUT dont make it seem like the pick we make will automatically pan out

[KB24]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

never said we should do it BUT dont make it seem like the pick we make will automatically pan out

There's no guarantee Chad will automatically pan out. If the pick is a bust, at least we still have that '09 third-rounder and won't take as bad of a hit on the cap.

Originally Posted by GMScud

Apparently the Bengals said the Redskins DID NOT make an offer, and PFT seems to think we're tampering big time:

BENGALS SAY NO OFFER HAS BEEN MADE FOR JOHNSON

Posted by Mike Florio on April 22, 2008, 1:28 p.m.
On Tuesday morning, Chris Mortensen of ESPN reported that the Washington Redskins have offered the Cincinnati Bengals a first-round pick in 2008 and a conditional pick in 2009 that could escalate to a first-rounder for receiver Chad Johnson.
Bengals coach Marvin Lewis says that it never happened.
“Mike Brown has not received a phone call,” Lewis said at a Tuesday press conference.
Lewis also continues to call Johnson’s bluff regarding his intention to retire if not traded. “He’s a man of his word,” Lewis said. “He says he’s not going to play, so don’t play. It’s time to do what you’re going to say you do and we’ll just move forward.”
So what’s going on here? It’s possible that the offer was made, and that the Bengals have opted to deny it in order to avoid the intense pressure that eventually will come from the fan base to spare them the antics of Ocho Psycho by getting real value for him right now and moving on.
Really, what can the Redskins do if the Bengals are lying? Call a press conference to say that an offer has been made? (That would be tampering on its face.)
And we continue to be (more) concerned that tampering might be occurring with Johnson. Even if the ‘Skins aren’t directly talking to agent Drew Rosenhaus, the fact that the Washington Post knows that the team is ready to pay Johnson $21 million in guaranteed money strongly suggests that the team is putting this information out there in the hopes of continuing to stoke the “I want out” fire that has escalated into an inferno.
In our opinion, what the Redskins apparently are doing is 1000 times worse than the conduct that formed the basis for the Bears tampering allegations against the 49ers. In our opinion, the Bengals should file tampering charges against the Redskins today, if for no reason other than to get the Redskins to back off.

I'd LOVE for that to happen!

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by KB24

There's no guarantee Chad will automatically pan out. If the pick is a bust, at least we still have that '09 third-rounder and won't take as bad of a hit on the cap.



I'd LOVE for that to happen!

Well if we're found guilty of tampering, Principal Goodell would take at least 1 draft pick from us.

[Skinny Tee]

Originally Posted by KB24

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

...I heard that.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by KB24

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

They also do a great job filling holes with players whose value is at it's absolute lowest...see a 4th round pick for Moss.

The problem isn't that we are trying to fill a need, it's that we could have offered DJ Hackett a 3 million dollar signing bonus to fill the same need, and instead seem intent on giving up a billion dollars to CJ as well as multiple draft picks to the Bengals.

A second round pick for CJ would be worth 2 years of an elite receiver, IMO. If we hold out the Bengals might drop their asking price to the point where we could get him at that price. According to Mortensen though, we are hell-bent on getting this deal done now, which kinda renders 3 months of patience totally irrelevant.

To win a deal, you have to be willing to risk losing the deal entirely. Snyder and Cerrato will never win a trade until they learn this concept.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

They also do a great job filling holes with players whose value is at it's absolute lowest...see a 4th round pick for Moss.

The problem isn't that we are trying to fill a need, it's that we could have offered DJ Hackett a 3 million dollar signing bonus to fill the same need, and instead seem intent on giving up a billion dollars to CJ as well as multiple draft picks to the Bengals.

A second round pick for CJ would be worth 2 years of an elite receiver, IMO. If we hold out the Bengals might drop their asking price to the point where we could get him at that price. According to Mortensen though, we are hell-bent on getting this deal done now, which kinda renders 3 months of patience totally irrelevant.

To win a deal, you have to be willing to risk losing the deal entirely. Snyder and Cerrato will never win a trade until they learn this concept.

They're more gung-ho about filling seats and selling shirts. As I said earlier, this organization is run by jackasses.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

They also do a great job filling holes with players whose value is at it's absolute lowest...see a 4th round pick for Moss.

The problem isn't that we are trying to fill a need, it's that we could have offered DJ Hackett a 3 million dollar signing bonus to fill the same need, and instead seem intent on giving up a billion dollars to CJ as well as multiple draft picks to the Bengals.

A second round pick for CJ would be worth 2 years of an elite receiver, IMO. If we hold out the Bengals might drop their asking price to the point where we could get him at that price. According to Mortensen though, we are hell-bent on getting this deal done now, which kinda renders 3 months of patience totally irrelevant.

To win a deal, you have to be willing to risk losing the deal entirely. Snyder and Cerrato will never win a trade until they learn this concept.

It is disingenuous to imply that DJ Hackett and Chad Johnson are comparable or would bring similar abilities to the team. As I've stated previously, I also think historical precedent says Johnson has more like 5-7 very productive years ahead of him rather than 2, but ok.

Now, the second half of your point is very well taken. You are probably right that in order to maximize their gain the Redskins need to be willing to lose the deal entirely. That is something that they have not done in past deals, even when the players acquired have worked out well (Portis/Brunell). A 2nd for Johnson would be ideal, or maybe a 2nd this year and a conditional pick in 2009. On that I would certainly agree ... less is more. I suspect they wanted to put the feelers out (assuming these reports are accurate) prior to the draft so they would be ahead of Philadelphia or Dallas. Plus, JLC has reported that Chad Johnson was the object of the FO's desire from the end of the season.

If reports are accurate, they've effectively set the market so any other team would have to come bigger than that. If the 21st pick comes and goes ... along with the 19th and then the 22nd and 28th ... then maybe the Bengals will relent and give in for the 51st and a conditional pick in '09. I am kind of thinking Mike Brown is willing to go to the mat with this pissing match, though, and that he won't deal Johnson at all.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SC Skins Fan

It is disingenuous to imply that DJ Hackett and Chad Johnson are comparable or would bring similar abilities to the team. As I've stated previously, I also think historical precedent says Johnson has more like 5-7 very productive years ahead of him rather than 2, but ok.

Now, the second half of your point is very well taken. You are probably right that in order to maximize their gain the Redskins need to be willing to lose the deal entirely. That is something that they have not done in past deals, even when the players acquired have worked out well (Portis/Brunell). A 2nd for Johnson would be ideal, or maybe a 2nd this year and a conditional pick in 2009. On that I would certainly agree ... less is more. I suspect they wanted to put the feelers out (assuming these reports are accurate) prior to the draft so they would be ahead of Philadelphia or Dallas. Plus, JLC has reported that Chad Johnson was the object of the FO's desire from the end of the season.

If reports are accurate, they've effectively set the market so any other team would have to come bigger than that. If the 21st pick comes and goes ... along with the 19th and then the 22nd and 28th ... then maybe the Bengals will relent and give in for the 51st and a conditional pick in '09. I am kind of thinking Mike Brown is willing to go to the mat with this pissing match, though, and that he won't deal Johnson at all.

yeah I'm not sure how that comparison came into the picture... it's absolutely ridiculous

[Skinny Tee]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

yeah I'm not sure how that comparison came into the picture... it's absolutely ridiculous

Hackett is at least a scheme player and has played along Zorn in the WCO the last three years.

Not comparable to CJ in physical talent but he would at least fit in with our offensive scheme and would not have come at a great cost.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Skinny Tee

Hackett is at least a scheme player and has played along Zorn in the WCO the last three years.

Not comparable to CJ in physical talent but he would at least fit in with our offensive scheme and would not have come at a great cost.

yeah I get that and I was a supporter of bringing in Hackett, but the two situations are completely different.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Skinny Tee

Hackett is at least a scheme player and has played along Zorn in the WCO the last three years.

Not comparable to CJ in physical talent but he would at least fit in with our offensive scheme and would not have come at a great cost.

So what is our Offensive scheme? If I'm correct they are still drawing up the plays.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by KB24

We need to get out of the habit of giving away draft picks like they're candy. The New Englands, Indianapolises, Pittsburghs and New York Giants of the world use ALL of their draft picks, groom their own talent and get themselves into situations where EACH of those picks are contributing on the field. The Giants had all of their draft picks playing in their Super Bowl run. We need to quit being star-struck and build from within.

I don't think people realize how many trades the Patriots have made over the years using their draft picks (whether to acquire later picks or veterans). I also don't think people realize that not every player selected by them has panned out.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't think people realize how many trades the Patriots have made over the years using their draft picks (whether to acquire later picks or veterans). I also don't think people realize that not every player selected by them has panned out.

Maybe so, but you can't deny what they're doing is working. They have sustained, consistent success since 2000. We have one playoff win.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't think people realize how many trades the Patriots have made over the years using their draft picks (whether to acquire later picks or veterans). I also don't think people realize that not every player selected by them has panned out.

I think the point is that it really hasn't hurt them at all, because despite having a high payroll, they always have money on hand to do what they need to do to improve.

Chad Jackson may never amount to anything in the NFL, but they picked him well behind his projected slot. There was certainly risk with that pick, but the New England Patriots could afford that risk.

The Redskins, on the other hand, I think that same pick would have been a disastrous selection, because we would have played Chad Jackson anyway because we drafted him, and he might have hurt the offense in the long run.

I am impressed by the way the Redskins throughly work through the draft, but again, this is not a team that can afford to make the high risk picks because they need a contribution from every player they draft to stay competitive.

So far so good, but again, what kind of message are you sending when you say "3 million dollars guaranteed and no picks is too much for an up and coming DJ Hackett, but 20 million dollars guarenteed plus a first and third rounder is a good deal for an over-the-hill CJ." I mean, where is the consistency in player evaluation? That's what worries me most, that the team might not understand the value of money.