Offer made on Chad (1st rd '08, conditional 3rd rd '09)

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

If we were one player away or we were a team knocking on the door to the SB then I could see. Kind of like how Philly traded for TO. But we barely made the playoffs and we were one and done. We need a solid two years of good drafting before we're that type of team. The whole O-line is going to have to be replaced in 2 years. Most people might not want to admit it but we're a team in transition right now. Why potentially set yourself back for the future by trading for this guy. It's just not smart football.

We're trading away one pick ONE PICK in the 2008 draft for one of the best wide receivers in the game, a position we need. We'll still have 8 more picks. Plus who's to say we can't trade back into the 3rd round next year if need be? Not to mention a couple more comp picks will probably come our way from the Reche and Macklin signings (at least one).

I think that people just aren't thinking here. They just have it ingrained in their minds that because of failed maneuvers like Lloyd and Duckett. Yet we tend to forget failed draft maneuevers like Taylor Jacobs.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

We're trading away one pick ONE PICK in the 2008 draft for one of the best wide receivers in the game, a position we need. We'll still have 8 more picks. Plus who's to say we can't trade back into the 3rd round next year if need be? Not to mention a couple more comp picks will probably come our way from the Reche and Macklin signings (at least one).

I think that people just aren't thinking here. They just have it ingrained in their minds that because of failed maneuvers like Lloyd and Duckett. Yet we tend to forget failed draft maneuevers like Taylor Jacobs.

Why would we give up two picks when we're a team that's in transition with many holes to fill? Does anyone remember the Seattle game last year?? Does anyone remember our o-line not being able to protect the QB or get a 1/2 yard in crucial 4th and short situations?? Or not being able to get the ball to Santana cause Collins was getting killed?? DOES ANYONE REMEMBER THAT?? It doesn't matter if we get CJ cause if the QB is on his backside then what good is it? Plus he's going to want a new deal. I just lost all faith in our FO. There just going back to their band-aid tactics.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Why would we give up two picks when we're a team that's in transition with many holes to fill? Does anyone remember the Seattle game last year?? Does anyone remember our o-line not being able to protect the QB or get a 1/2 yard in crucial 4th and short situations?? Or not being able to get the ball to Santana cause Collins was getting killed?? DOES ANYONE REMEMBER THAT?? It doesn't matter if we get CJ cause if the QB is on his backside then what good is it? Plus he's going to want a new deal. I just lost all faith in our FO. There just going back to their band-aid tactics.

Are you assuming an OL is going to fall to us with the #21 pick? Because if not, then your argument holds no weight.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Are you assuming an OL is going to fall to us with the #21 pick? Because if not, then your argument holds no weight.

Well if one doesn't then we should get a pass rusher.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Well if one doesn't then we should get a pass rusher.

they might not fall to us either

[Dirtbag59]

The Bengal fans think that they're going to get some super mega-offer on draft day, and a lot of them also think that the Redskins have a crappy passing game so CJ won't reach the incentives required to bump up next years 3rd rounder to a 1st rounder. It's kind of funny reading it because they're pretty confident that they're going to get a better deal on draft day.

Also if some of you guys think Mike Brown is going to budge think again. I heard a lot of references to an Akili Smith trade, so I decided to look into it. Mike Brown is as stubborn as they come.

Cincinnati Bengals
Prior to his drafting there was a huge effort by the New Orleans Saints head coach Mike Ditka and management to get the Bengals' high draft position so the Saints could get Ricky Williams. The final offer, which was refused by the Bengals management, was for 9 draft picks, several extra in this year as well as many in the next year. Instead of taking the trade, the Bengals stuck with their initial decision to draft Smith, who, while undeniably athletic -- he had also played some professional baseball -- was still largely unproven, having only impressed at the college level for one season.

Smith missed large periods of 1999 pre-season training with the Bengals due to contract disputes; many pundits later speculated that his absence from this short training period hurt him immensely in the seasons to come. Despite incredible shows of athleticism in his early games, he failed to grasp the Bengals playbook fully, and never established himself with the team. Throughout the four years he was with the Bengals, he would only start in 17 games, eventually leading to his outright release in the 2002 season.

Smith joined other highly drafted Bengals players such as David Klingler, Ki-Jana Carter, and Peter Warrick who as a result of injury, bad work ethic, bad management and coaching decisions, or simply poor performance, failed to live up to the high expectations that came with being selected early in the first round. Such picks are considered a major reason for the Bengals' dismal performances during the 1990s and early 2000s.

Also found this:
Brown calls Akili over Saints' 9 picks 'a wash'
Yet, Brown is still convinced the decision to draft Smith with the third pick and turn down the New Orleans Saints' offer of nine draft choices (first and third through seventh rounds in '99, first-rounders in 2000 and 2001 and a second in 2002) will hold up under the test of time.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag359

The Bengal fans think that they're going to get some super mega-offer on draft day, and a lot of them also think that the Redskins have a crappy passing game so CJ won't reach the incentives required to bump up next years 3rd rounder to a 1st rounder. It's kind of funny reading it because they're pretty confident that they're going to get a better deal on draft day.

Also if some of you guys think Mike Brown is going to budge think again. I heard a lot of references to an Akili Smith trade, so I decided to look into it. Mike Brown is as stubborn as they come.

Cincinnati Bengals
Prior to his drafting there was a huge effort by the New Orleans Saints head coach Mike Ditka and management to get the Bengals' high draft position so the Saints could get Ricky Williams. The final offer, which was refused by the Bengals management, was for 9 draft picks, several extra in this year as well as many in the next year. Instead of taking the trade, the Bengals stuck with their initial decision to draft Smith, who, while undeniably athletic -- he had also played some professional baseball -- was still largely unproven, having only impressed at the college level for one season.

Smith missed large periods of 1999 pre-season training with the Bengals due to contract disputes; many pundits later speculated that his absence from this short training period hurt him immensely in the seasons to come. Despite incredible shows of athleticism in his early games, he failed to grasp the Bengals playbook fully, and never established himself with the team. Throughout the four years he was with the Bengals, he would only start in 17 games, eventually leading to his outright release in the 2002 season.

Smith joined other highly drafted Bengals players such as David Klingler, Ki-Jana Carter, and Peter Warrick who as a result of injury, bad work ethic, bad management and coaching decisions, or simply poor performance, failed to live up to the high expectations that came with being selected early in the first round. Such picks are considered a major reason for the Bengals' dismal performances during the 1990s and early 2000s.

Also found this:
Brown calls Akili over Saints' 9 picks 'a wash'
Yet, Brown is still convinced the decision to draft Smith with the third pick and turn down the New Orleans Saints' offer of nine draft choices (first and third through seventh rounds in '99, first-rounders in 2000 and 2001 and a second in 2002) will hold up under the test of time.

wow.... just wow.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Well if one doesn't then we should get a pass rusher.

How important a need do you think WR is and how should we solve the need?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How important a need do you think WR is and how should we solve the need?

I think we need a big, physical wideout to complement our small, fast guys. However, in the WCO a dominant WR is not necessary to have a productive offense (Seattle, GB, Philly). I think draft a WR in the third and see who develops (Mix, McMullen) or who comes available June 1.

I don't like giving up a #1 for CJ. He is one of the better WRs in the NFL but he is over 30, wants a very large contract, and his personality is not what a first time HC or young QB need.

Johnson also "disappears" for multiple games at a time. His numbers are misleading, he will explode in a couple of games and then do little or nothing for 3-4 weeks.

Look at it this way, we have large contracts already at WR. How many plays is a WR involved in per game, 8-10 normally? What about DE, DT, OL, LB, CB. They are involved in about 55 plays per game. If we didn't have the needs at so many other positions and were a "player away", then the move makes sense. Right now it just doesn't.

Just say "No!" to Ocho Cinco. Good for us the Bengals are hard-headed (or don't want to take the $ 8M cap hit).

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

How important a need do you think WR is and how should we solve the need?

WR is not as important as a pass rusher or a road grading guard. That's what wins in the NFL. Not diva wr's. I give Parcells and the gang credit for taking J.Long. They get it. You win football games in the trenches. Take Ariz, Det and Cinn for example. They have great wr tandems yet they never do anything in the post season. Why? Why is that? Skill guys sell tickets but in the end you've got to be able to protect your passer and knock down the opponents passer.

I would address the wr position in the mid rounds or next year. You can't fix everything in one year. I don't know these guys names but the guy on K. State just was an animal. All he does it get open. Same with the guy on Vanderbuilt. I think he is the all time leading wr in SEC history but no one is talking about him. All the pub is going to Devin Thomas. These guys can be found in the mid rounds and there would be good value picking one of them and I would bet that one or both will have good NFL careers.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

WR is not as important as a pass rusher or a road grading guard. That's what wins in the NFL. Not diva wr's. I give Parcells and the gang credit for taking J.Long. They get it. You win football games in the trenches. Take Ariz, Det and Cinn for example. They have great wr tandems yet they never do anything in the post season.

I would address the wr position in the mid rounds or next year. You can't fix everything in one year. I don't know these guys names but the guy on K. State just was an animal. All he does it get open. Same with the guy on Vanderbuilt. I think he is the all time leading wr in SEC history but no one is talking about him. All the pub is going to Devin Thomas. These guys can be found in the mid rounds and there would be good value picking one of them and I would bet that one or both will have good NFL careers.

You make some really good points. However, I wouldn't give too much credit to the Phins for taking Jake Long. They sort of backed into that because he was the cheapest option and other top candidates not so subtly said they wouldn't play for the Dolphins. This isn't to say they didn't value JL or that they're not happy with him.

I would have an issue with the Chad Johnson trade (or one for RW or Boldin) if I felt it would seriously cripple our ability to fill other needs. Right now I don't feel that it does.

[KB24]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

WR is not as important as a pass rusher or a road grading guard. That's what wins in the NFL. Not diva wr's. I give Parcells and the gang credit for taking J.Long. They get it. You win football games in the trenches. Take Ariz, Det and Cinn for example. They have great wr tandems yet they never do anything in the post season. Why? Why is that? Skill guys sell tickets but in the end you've got to be able to protect your passer and knock down the opponents passer.

I would address the wr position in the mid rounds or next year. You can't fix everything in one year. I don't know these guys names but the guy on K. State just was an animal. All he does it get open. Same with the guy on Vanderbuilt. I think he is the all time leading wr in SEC history but no one is talking about him. All the pub is going to Devin Thomas. These guys can be found in the mid rounds and there would be good value picking one of them and I would bet that one or both will have good NFL careers.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The guy from K-State you mentioned was Jordy Nelson. I'm hoping we can take him in the second round. Meantime, below is an article taken from Football Outsiders.com:

ESPN - Adding star WR rarely improves team - NFL

When it comes to NFL wide receivers, the watchword of the day is "disgruntled." Chad Johnson is unhappy in Cincinnati and has demanded a trade. Anquan Boldin is unhappy in Arizona and has also demanded a trade. At least we know Boldin is unhappy about money; nobody seems to know why Johnson wants out of Cincinnati.

In recent years, adding a disgruntled wide receiver has provided the final piece of the puzzle for a number of Super Bowl contenders. Trading for Terrell Owens helped the 2004 Eagles finally advance to the Super Bowl. Trading for Randy Moss transformed the New England offense and led to a 16-0 regular season. It's no wonder numerous teams have contacted Cincinnati and Arizona, trying to talk trade.

However, if the Bengals and Cardinals give in to the trade demands, it may not mean as much as people think. NFL teams that add a star wide receiver don't actually have a very good record of improvement.

Of course, there is no precedent for a consistent wide receiver of Johnson's caliber changing teams. Johnson was third in the NFL last year with 1,440 receiving yards, and has five straight seasons with at least 1,200 receiving yards. No wide receiver in NFL history has ever changed teams after two straight 1,200-yard seasons, let alone five. No wide receiver has ever changed teams after five straight 1,000-yard seasons, and only two changed teams after four (Owens and Muhsin Muhammad).

Since the AFL-NFL merger in 1970, only six different receivers have changed teams after a 1,200-yard season. Each of the teams that lost a 1,200-yard receiver suffered except for the 2005 Panthers, but that's a special case -- they lost Muhammad, but they also got Steve Smith back from the broken leg that cost him nearly all of 2004, and he moved right back into the No. 1 receiver role.

Meanwhile, the teams that added these receivers generally didn't get any better. By far the biggest improvement came from the 2005 Bears, but that had a lot more to do with defense than it did with signing Muhammad. Of these six wide receivers, Laveranues Coles was the only one who gained 1,000 yards in his first season with his new team.

Loosen the restrictions to get a bigger group of receivers, and the analysis gives pretty much the same result: Teams that lose a top receiver usually decline, but despite what we've seen in recent years from Owens and Moss, the average team that gains a top receiver doesn't improve.

For example, let's look at a group that would include not only Johnson but also Boldin: receivers who gained 1,000 yards the previous season or a combined 2,000 yards the previous two seasons. Twenty-eight receivers qualify for a total of 31 seasons, since three receivers did it twice (Coles, Tony Martin and Keenan McCardell). Note that Moss counts only when he went from Minnesota to Oakland, not when he went from Oakland to New England, because of his poor 2006 season.

The 31 teams that lost these receivers dropped from an average of 7.3 wins to an average of 6.6 wins. But the 31 teams that picked up these receivers also dropped slightly, from an average of 7.9 wins to an average of 7.8 wins.

Even if we look at the teams with the biggest improvement, it is hard to say that the new receivers made a big difference. The 2004 Chargers had already turned things around by the time they picked up McCardell at midseason. The 2002 Colts bounced back because Edgerrin James returned from his ACL injury, not because they added Qadry Ismail. Brett Perriman had nothing to do with the 1997 Chiefs going 13-3; he caught just six passes and Kansas City released him after five games. I already mentioned Muhammad above. Of the five receivers whose new teams gained four wins or more, the only one who really had a major impact was Tony Martin joining the 1998 Falcons, who didn't have a 1,000-yard receiver the year before.

One reason these players haven't been more important to their new teams is that 1,000-yard receivers who change teams have usually tended to be very good No. 2 receivers like Boldin, rather than superstars like Johnson. Only 15 of these 31 receivers led both their old team and their new team in receiving yards. This group had a slightly positive effect, with teams that picked up these players going from an average of 7.7 wins to an average of 8.1 wins.

As I said earlier, no player with Johnson's pedigree has ever changed teams in the offseason. Just because guys like Derrick Mason and Yancey Thigpen weren't major difference-makers when they changed teams, that doesn't mean Johnson couldn't transform an offense that desperately needed a No. 1 receiver (hello, Jacksonville). Obviously, this analysis doesn't do a good job of measuring the transformative power of Owens in Philadelphia or Moss in New England. Owens helped the Eagles win more playoff games, not more regular-season games. Moss and the 2007 Patriots don't even show up in the analysis because he was so bad in Oakland.

On the other hand, Owens and Moss have each switched teams twice, and neither one made as much of a difference the other time. The Cowboys signed Owens and went from 9-7 to … 9-7. Even after trading for Moss, the Raiders' offense was still a joke.

Nothing guarantees Johnson will help carry his new team to the Super Bowl the way Owens and Moss did for the Eagles and Patriots. Odds are that the loss of Johnson or Boldin will hurt Cincinnati or Arizona more than the addition will help their new teams.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

We're trading away one pick ONE PICK in the 2008 draft for one of the best wide receivers in the game, a position we need. We'll still have 8 more picks. Plus who's to say we can't trade back into the 3rd round next year if need be? Not to mention a couple more comp picks will probably come our way from the Reche and Macklin signings (at least one).

I think that people just aren't thinking here. They just have it ingrained in their minds that because of failed maneuvers like Lloyd and Duckett. Yet we tend to forget failed draft maneuevers like Taylor Jacobs.

Dealing two early round picks for Chad Johnson would not doom our franchise and, at least in the short run, it would likely dramatically improve our offense. Chad is simply a dominant player who could really open things up for Cooley, Portis, Moss, and ARE. But, at 30 years of age, Chad Johnson wouldn't help us find a solution to problems that we are going to have to face pretty soon....youth and depth.

We and projected to field one of the oldest starting lineups in the league. We are likely to lose key starters at several positions within the next 2 years. Aside from QB and RB, I think we have depth issues at every position. It is becoming increasingly difficult to fill holes and build depth via free agency. So, in my opinion, we need to acquire more depth and youth via: (1) the draft; and/or (2) trades. Trading for Chad isn't making a trade for a younger, proven player and it costs us the opportunity to draft young, cheap talent.

So, IMO, while the world wouldn't end if we did make the trade, there are certainly legitimate reasons to think it might cause problems for us down the line.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Dealing two early round picks for Chad Johnson would not doom our franchise and, at least in the short run, it would likely dramatically improve our offense. Chad is simply a dominant player who could really open things up for Cooley, Portis, Moss, and ARE. But, at 30 years of age, Chad Johnson wouldn't help us find a solution to problems that we are going to have to face pretty soon....youth and depth.

We and projected to field one of the oldest starting lineups in the league. We are likely to lose key starters at several positions within the next 2 years. Aside from QB and RB, I think we have depth issues at every position. It is becoming increasingly difficult to fill holes and build depth via free agency. So, in my opinion, we need to acquire more depth and youth via: (1) the draft; and/or (2) trades. Trading for Chad isn't making a trade for a younger, proven player and it costs us the opportunity to draft young, cheap talent.

So, IMO, while the world wouldn't end if we did make the trade, there are certainly legitimate reasons to think it might cause problems for us down the line.

I think we're really making too big a deal out of this whole 30 year old issue. He likely has many good years ahead of him.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think we're really making too big a deal out of this whole 30 year old issue. He likely has many good years ahead of him.

Yep, 4 of the leading WRs from last year are 30 or over, and I threw Wayne in there because he's right at the cusp

R. Moss - 31
Johnson - 30
Owens - 34
Holt - 31
Wayne - 29