Vinny Cerrato

[Jake2008]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree with the bolded point.. When you look at the most productive offenses in the NFL, what do they have in common? At least one elite WR. NE-Randy Moss, Dallas-Owens, Cleveland-Braylon Edwards, Indy-Harrison & Wayne.. Points come from the passing game!! Of course the line (which we have a good one) and QB (which we have a good one) are important, without the players with the ability to get 40 or 50 yard chunks at a time it's tough to score a ton of points in the league..

I don't know what your Redskins 7 deep WR depth chart looked like before the draft but I saw Moss, Randle-El, Mix, Thrash and that's it. I see 2 solid WR, an unproven-undrafted prospect and an older special teams player.. If Thomas and/or Kelly develop into what we expect, we can legitimately trot out 4 solid WR on any given week and cause matchup nightmares for any DC. Can you imagine having to put a nickel or dime corner on Moss in the slot? Having a LB or safety matched one on one with Randle-El? With the attention the WR are going to require, it sets up another mismatch for Cooley with whomever has to match up with him. This was a draft to build an explosive offense to compete with the elite teams in the league.

The teams you mentioned also had great lines. Look what happened to Brady when he finally got pressured. Moss didn't make a difference. All these guys had time to look over the defense and wait for someone to get open. You can only do that with a great offensive line. Without it, you better have John Elway.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by Jake2008

The teams you mentioned also had great lines. Look what happened to Brady when he finally got pressured. Moss didn't make a difference. All these guys had time to look over the defense and wait for someone to get open. You can only do that with a great offensive line. Without it, you better have John Elway.

I acknowledged the line, but also said we have a good one. Samuels is a perennial pro bowler, Thomas and Rabach are very good, Jansen and Kendall are just about done but we can probably get another good season out of them both. Last year our inability to score points didn't have as much to do with not being able to protect the QB as our lack of weapons the defense had to account for and the playcalling did. Our OL depth needed (and needs) improvement, but we didn't go into the draft needing starters on the OL in '08. If Samuels or Jansen goes down for an extended period, I'm ok with Heyer and to a much lesser extent, Wade. If Thomas or Kendall goes down, we've got Alexander and the rookie. We've got a top 15 OL in the NFL right now when everyone is healthy, now we have the weaponry to utilize them.

[Jake2008]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I acknowledged the line, but also said we have a good one. Samuels is a perennial pro bowler, Thomas and Rabach are very good, Jansen and Kendall are just about done but we can probably get another good season out of them both. Last year our inability to score points didn't have as much to do with not being able to protect the QB as our lack of weapons the defense had to account for and the playcalling did. Our OL depth needed (and needs) improvement, but we didn't go into the draft needing starters on the OL in '08. If Samuels or Jansen goes down for an extended period, I'm ok with Heyer and to a much lesser extent, Wade. If Thomas or Kendall goes down, we've got Alexander and the rookie. We've got a top 15 OL in the NFL right now when everyone is healthy, now we have the weaponry to utilize them.

All our OL are on the wrong side of 30 and Jansen missed the whole season with a major injury and Thomas missed most of the season so who knows how they will come back this year. But odds are we will lose 2-3 of the starting 5 to at least injury assuming they can still perform at their former levels. A good starting lineman is probably harder to find then a second TE or another possesion type receiver in which we now have the 2 we drafted to go with ARE. Hopefully Davis's blocking skills have improved because I can see us needing to hold a TE back to help out the line.

[HOGTIMUS PRIME]

Originally Posted by Jake2008

The teams you mentioned also had great lines. Look what happened to Brady when he finally got pressured. Moss didn't make a difference. All these guys had time to look over the defense and wait for someone to get open. You can only do that with a great offensive line. Without it, you better have John Elway.

You got that right! Great offensive lines win championships, they make everyone around them better not the other way around.

[irish]

Originally Posted by HOGTIMUS PRIME

You got that right! Great offensive lines win championships, they make everyone around them better not the other way around.

You arew 100% correct. Everyone (except the Skins, even though they used to know it) knows that you build a team from the inside out. That means having strong O & D lines and then filling in around them. All the successful teams have done it that way and I doubt that formula for success will change anytime soon.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by irish

You arew 100% correct. Everyone (except the Skins, even though they used to know it) knows that you build a team from the inside out. That means having strong O & D lines and then filling in around them. All the successful teams have done it that way and I doubt that formula for success will change anytime soon.

Really? Let's come out of the 80's glory years and look at recent history.

QB is the key to everything. In today's NFL you win with a great QB.
Patriots: got Brady and built around him, their OL & DL haven't been filled with Pro-Bowlers during their successful run.
Indy: Manning, then fill in the pieces
Steelers: couldn't get over the hump until Big Ben arrived and when he struggled, no matter how good the OL & DL are, they struggled.
Seattle: solid, but playoff caliber when Hasselbeck put it together.
Green Bay: One of the better OL & DL, but Favre sucks, they suck. Favre plays well they go deep into the playoffs.
Dallas: (as much as I hate it) very solid OL & front 7, Romo goes to Mexico with Jess and they choke.
Jaguars: I'd argue they have the best OL & front 7 in the NFL. They can't get over the hump. Garrard's play improves and now they are on the cusp of doing something special.
Bears: outside of the miracle D in 2006, with no QB, they struggle.

How does this apply to us? JC is coming to the point where it is $hit or get off the pot. Zorn needed to get him the weapons to be successful. JC should have learned the system and be primed for a Pro-Bowl performance in 2009, the receivers should be ready in 2009 after a year to adjust to the NFL and learn the system. Even if we have an average OL / DL, JC playing at a Pro-Bowl level with the weapons the FO has provided should put us deep in the playoffs.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Really? Let's come out of the 80's glory years and look at recent history.

QB is the key to everything. In today's NFL you win with a great QB.
Patriots: got Brady and built around him, their OL & DL haven't been filled with Pro-Bowlers during their successful run.
Indy: Manning, then fill in the pieces
Steelers: couldn't get over the hump until Big Ben arrived and when he struggled, no matter how good the OL & DL are, they struggled.
Seattle: solid, but playoff caliber when Hasselbeck put it together.
Green Bay: One of the better OL & DL, but Favre sucks, they suck. Favre plays well they go deep into the playoffs.
Dallas: (as much as I hate it) very solid OL & front 7, Romo goes to Mexico with Jess and they choke.
Jaguars: I'd argue they have the best OL & front 7 in the NFL. They can't get over the hump. Garrard's play improves and now they are on the cusp of doing something special.
Bears: outside of the miracle D in 2006, with no QB, they struggle.

How does this apply to us? JC is coming to the point where it is $hit or get off the pot. Zorn needed to get him the weapons to be successful. JC should have learned the system and be primed for a Pro-Bowl performance in 2009, the receivers should be ready in 2009 after a year to adjust to the NFL and learn the system. Even if we have an average OL / DL, JC playing at a Pro-Bowl level with the weapons the FO has provided should put us deep in the playoffs.

I would consider getting a great QB & LB the only other part of building from the inside out. Teams need great QBs and need to protect them. If they dont the rest is meaningless. JC can have all the targets he wants but if he has no time to throw to them than they arent weapons.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by irish

I would consider getting a great QB & LB the only other part of building from the inside out. Teams need great QBs and need to protect them. If they dont the rest is meaningless. JC can have all the targets he wants but if he has no time to throw to them than they arent weapons.

"No time to throw" would indicate a poor OL. Our OL was above average with all the injuries and as long as Joe Bugel is our line coach, no matter the talent, will continue to be at worst, average. Stats from 2007:

Sacks Allowed - NFL Rank 13th
Sack % - 12th

Rush Yds - 12th
Pass Yds - 14th
INTs - 4th lowest

The only poor OL stat was Yards per Carry and that has as much to do with the playcalling as OL performance.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

"No time to throw" would indicate a poor OL. Our OL was above average with all the injuries and as long as Joe Bugel is our line coach, no matter the talent, will continue to be at worst, average. Stats from 2007:

Sacks Allowed - NFL Rank 13th
Sack % - 12th

Rush Yds - 12th
Pass Yds - 14th
INTs - 4th lowest

The only poor OL stat was Yards per Carry and that has as much to do with the playcalling as OL performance.

Thanks for posting these stats, I was just looking for this. We were one of the least sacked teams in the NFL. I think what happened here was, we just yieled some very untimely sacks.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by irish

I would consider getting a great QB & LB the only other part of building from the inside out. Teams need great QBs and need to protect them. If they dont the rest is meaningless. JC can have all the targets he wants but if he has no time to throw to them than they arent weapons.

I tend to agree that great teams have great lines. I really wanted us to pick up another O-lineman and a quality D-lineman. But, while our depth isn't that good, our starting lines are more than adequate. Moreover, fielding a bunch of quality players at skill positions in West Coast spread formations would, arguably, make some teams less eager to blitz.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I tend to agree that great teams have great lines. I really wanted us to pick up another O-lineman and a quality D-lineman. But, while our depth isn't that good, our starting lines are more than adequate. Moreover, fielding a bunch of quality players at skill positions in West Coast spread formations would, arguably, make some teams less eager to blitz.

Well, Andre Carter had a career year last year. I don't think it would be wise to expect that kind of production again.

If Corneilus Griffin can stay healthy all year, I think our DL will do fine. However, the second he stops getting a push up the middle, Carter and Evans are no longer a threat to anyone.

Perhaps Phillip Daniels can help us as a defensive tackle/interior pass rusher this season.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I tend to agree that great teams have great lines. I really wanted us to pick up another O-lineman and a quality D-lineman. But, while our depth isn't that good, our starting lines are more than adequate. Moreover, fielding a bunch of quality players at skill positions in West Coast spread formations would, arguably, make some teams less eager to blitz.

I was getting really nervous about our O-line, but Jon Jansen and Randy Thomas going down in two straight games to a torn bicep and broken foot were really flukey. Otherwise we had about the frequency of injuries any offensive line should expect, maybe a little more.

There's no doubt our front five will have to start restocking for the future, but it's not like the guys we have now are keeling over left and right. We should be fine without the fluke injuries for at least this season. But next April going after another highly ranked guard and tackle should be a priority.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by irish

You arew 100% correct. Everyone (except the Skins, even though they used to know it) knows that you build a team from the inside out. That means having strong O & D lines and then filling in around them. All the successful teams have done it that way and I doubt that formula for success will change anytime soon.

And Bill Parcells who always advocated building from the outside in. The lines are important, not disputing that, but skill position players put points on the board and keep them off..

The best O-line for most of this decade was the KC Chiefs, what did they win? The best D-line has been in Tampa for most of the decade, TB won once.

You've got to have better skill position (QB and LB) and perimeter players (WR & CB) than your opponent in order to win and win consistently.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

And Bill Parcells who always advocated building from the outside in. The lines are important, not disputing that, but skill position players put points on the board and keep them off..

The best O-line for most of this decade was the KC Chiefs, what did they win? The best D-line has been in Tampa for most of the decade, TB won once.

You've got to have better skill position (QB and LB) and perimeter players (WR & CB) than your opponent in order to win and win consistently.

Which leads me to a question, does defense really win championships? I'll save that for another thread.

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Which leads me to a question, does defense really win championships? I'll save that for another thread.

I think the 2000 Ravens will tell you it most certainly can.