Vinny Cerrato

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by irish

You arew 100% correct. Everyone (except the Skins, even though they used to know it) knows that you build a team from the inside out. That means having strong O & D lines and then filling in around them. All the successful teams have done it that way and I doubt that formula for success will change anytime soon.

And Bill Parcells who always advocated building from the outside in. The lines are important, not disputing that, but skill position players put points on the board and keep them off..

The best O-line for most of this decade was the KC Chiefs, what did they win? The best D-line has been in Tampa for most of the decade, TB won once.

You've got to have better skill position (QB and LB) and perimeter players (WR & CB) than your opponent in order to win and win consistently.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

And Bill Parcells who always advocated building from the outside in. The lines are important, not disputing that, but skill position players put points on the board and keep them off..

The best O-line for most of this decade was the KC Chiefs, what did they win? The best D-line has been in Tampa for most of the decade, TB won once.

You've got to have better skill position (QB and LB) and perimeter players (WR & CB) than your opponent in order to win and win consistently.

Which leads me to a question, does defense really win championships? I'll save that for another thread.

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Which leads me to a question, does defense really win championships? I'll save that for another thread.

I think the 2000 Ravens will tell you it most certainly can.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by ArtMonkDrillz

I think the 2000 Ravens will tell you it most certainly can.

That's starting to look more and more like an anamoly. In the sense that, they had literally no offense that year.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Which leads me to a question, does defense really win championships? I'll save that for another thread.

And the answer is a resounding "no". If defense did win champiionships, we should have done a whole lot better in 2004 when we had the #3 ranked D in the NFL. We finished a whopping 6-10.

[Stuck in TX]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

And the answer is a resounding "no". If defense did win champiionships, we should have done a whole lot better in 2004 when we had the #3 ranked D in the NFL. We finished a whopping 6-10.

Defense win championships. hands down. you just have to have the offense to accomodate that defense. not allowing the other team to score is more important than scoring, but some scoring must be done... after all thats what determines a winner.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Stuck in TX

Defense win championships. hands down. you just have to have the offense to accomodate that defense. not allowing the other team to score is more important than scoring, but some scoring must be done... after all thats what determines a winner.

If what you say is true, then why didn't we win a championship in 2004?

[Drift Reality]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

If what you say is true, then why didn't we win a championship in 2004?

Lets be clear - defense wins championships but it isn't like you can't have any offense at all. Your offense has to be able to maintain possession to some extent and ultimately, score the ball -

Now, that can be mitigated to some extent by having elite special teams (which we didn't have in 2004) or if you have a defense that creates turnovers (which we didn't have in 2004).

If we had an elite special teams unit and created turnovers then we would have won in 2004. Unfortunately, what we had was a tough defense that limited opponents yards but did not get many takeaways. Our special teams were average.

Additionally, I think we had some questionable coaching that year to compound things.

In general though - defense will win you championships. And someone else on this thread made the comment - just look at the current NFL champs. If they were all built on one side of the ball there is no way they would have stopped the machine.

Incidentally, Justin Tuck was the 74th pick overall in his draft. Just food for thought - that while we were taking three receivers, there were probably talented pass rushers who could have helped us waiting to be drafted.

[MrJL]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

Lets be clear - defense wins championships but it isn't like you can't have any offense at all. Your offense has to be able to maintain possession to some extent and ultimately, score the ball -

Now, that can be mitigated to some extent by having elite special teams (which we didn't have in 2004) or if you have a defense that creates turnovers (which we didn't have in 2004).

If we had an elite special teams unit and created turnovers then we would have won in 2004. Unfortunately, what we had was a tough defense that limited opponents yards but did not get many takeaways. Our special teams were average.

Additionally, I think we had some questionable coaching that year to compound things.

In general though - defense will win you championships. And someone else on this thread made the comment - just look at the current NFL champs. If they were all built on one side of the ball there is no way they would have stopped the machine.

Incidentally, Justin Tuck was the 74th pick overall in his draft. Just food for thought - that while we were taking three receivers, there were probably talented pass rushers who could have helped us waiting to be drafted.

We had the eighth ranked defense last year.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by Drift Reality

Lets be clear - defense wins championships but it isn't like you can't have any offense at all. Your offense has to be able to maintain possession to some extent and ultimately, score the ball -

Now, that can be mitigated to some extent by having elite special teams (which we didn't have in 2004) or if you have a defense that creates turnovers (which we didn't have in 2004).

If we had an elite special teams unit and created turnovers then we would have won in 2004. Unfortunately, what we had was a tough defense that limited opponents yards but did not get many takeaways. Our special teams were average.

Additionally, I think we had some questionable coaching that year to compound things.

In general though - defense will win you championships. And someone else on this thread made the comment - just look at the current NFL champs. If they were all built on one side of the ball there is no way they would have stopped the machine.

Incidentally, Justin Tuck was the 74th pick overall in his draft. Just food for thought - that while we were taking three receivers, there were probably talented pass rushers who could have helped us waiting to be drafted.

Trying to argue this is like trying to determine if the chicken or the egg came first. You have to have both. Certainly you can't win if you have all offense and no defense. But the opposite is also true -- example? The 2004 Washington Redskins.

You could also point to the Eagles when they had Reggie White, Gerome Brown, Clyde Simmons, Andre Waters, Seth Joyner... those were fantastic defenses that Buddy Ryan built. But they never came close to sniffing a championship.

As to your last point, if Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, and Malcolm Kelly contribute so much so that this offense breaks into the top five, and scores similar to the way they did in '83 and '91, nobody questions this draft. If not, or worse, one of those guys turns out to be a complete bust, Vinny will never live down taking three receivers when your pass rush has been a problem for years.