Should Hillary Hang It Up?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i think the loss in West Virginia still shows we have a long way to go in this country, racially

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

You bring up some good points, 70. It was Toni Morrison that declared Bill the first black Prez., but she has recently backed away from those statements, saying she didn't mean it quite "that way". Okay, whatever.

As far as Black America and the Clintons are concerned, I think Black America has learned the hard way what kind of politicians the Clintons really are. But as loyal as they were in supporting him/them, I think to a great extent, they'll most certainly dishonor them at the polls in Fall, provided that Hillary somehow get's the nomination. She can stick a fork in the black vote, because it's cooked.

I wouldn't read too much into the national polls right now. By any measurement, it's still early. We all know how fickled those national polls can be anyway. We haven't had a single debate between the respective, presumptive nominees yet, so those polls are pretty meaningless if you ask me.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

Completely agreed. Those accusations are asinine.

IF someone votes for or against Obama simply because he's black, that's not racist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against Clinton simply because she's a woman, that's not sexist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against McCain simply because he's an older man, that's not *create new PC term*-ist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Buster

Completely agreed. Those accusations are asinine.

IF someone votes for or against Obama simply because he's black, that's not racist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against Clinton simply because she's a woman, that's not sexist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

IF someone votes for or against McCain simply because he's an older man, that's not *create new PC term*-ist, it's just ignorant and stupid.

OMG, you can't possibly be serious. Ignorant and stupid? I think you might want to actually check the definition of what racism is. Unless I am not aware of my own ignorants I do believe not voting for someone because they are black rather than on the merits of their character and position IS racist (it falls under "discrimination or prejudice based on race" definition).

p.s. Same principle applies in sexism and ageism which is NOT a new PC term.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

So people who don't vote for Obama are racist. I'm sure we'll all get a bellyful of this logic between now and November.

Also, it wasn't the Clintons that declared Bill Clinton to be the first black president, it was Toni Morrison. If Black America has a problem with him now, they only have themselves to blame. They were the backbone of his support and if not for them he would have surely been driven from office in disgrace and we would all have been rid of him.

People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

And come on, Toni Morrison, while a tremendous author, is neither an intellectual nor a political leader in black America. Clinton remained in office because he enjoyed broad political support in various demographic groups. If "black America" wants to support a different candidate now it's not your place to patronizingly tell "them" that they essentially are reaping what they sowed. It's crazy that you blame "black America" for the success of one of the most popular presidents in modern history, whom you happen to disagree with.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

People who say they didn't vote for Obama because of race are, to me, racist, and according to polls that was 20 percent of white voters in West Virginia. A recent Washington Post article has some pretty stunning anecdotes from some Obama volunteers Racist Incidents Give Some Obama Campaigners Pause . Let's not get all delusional and pretend that race doesn't exist in America anymore. While it's true that not supporting Obama doesn't make you a racist, it's insane to pretend that it won't be a factor in this race - and as an American that shames me.

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

[saden1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

It's wrong on all levels. If you don't believe in someone's message and you're just voting without considering the issues you're racist.

A lot has recently been made that the African American community is voting for Obama becasue he is black. Truth if Obama was a republican he would get the same amount of votes you'd expect Clarence Thomas or Alan Keys to get from African Americans. The reason he's winning the black vote is largely due to his appeal and the ineptness of the Clintons not because he's black. There's also the hope factor.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by saden1

It's wrong on all levels. If you don't believe in someone's message and you're just voting without considering the issues you're racist.

A lot has recently been made that the African American community is voting for Obama becasue he is black. Truth if Obama was a republican he would get the same amount of votes you'd expect Clarence Thomas or Alan Keys to get from African Americans. The reason he's winning the black vote is largely due to his appeal and the ineptness of the Clintons not because he's black. There's also the hope factor.

Funny you mention Alan Keyes. Didn't Obama win his Senate seat by defeating Keyes (after Ditka decided not to run)?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Funny you mention Alan Keyes. Didn't Obama win his Senate seat by defeating Keyes (after Ditka decided not to run)?

Yes sir, I guess he was so good the GOP thought it best to bring in Alan Keyes who isn't from Illinois to run against him. He killed him with 70% of the vote.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by saden1

Yes sir, I guess he was so good the GOP thought it best to bring in Alan Keyes who isn't from Illinois to run against him. He killed him with 70% of the vote.

And to think it all began because of some kinky sex allegations by Jeri Ryan (mmmm...Jeri Ryan, drooool)

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

It's no secret that some people are voting for Obama largely because of his race. It's also no secret that a small minority of Americans are voting against Obama because of his race. I think, however, there is a subtle, yet important distinction between voting for someone because of his/her race and voting against someone because of his/her race.

Mindful of our not so distant past, many Americans find it thrilling to see an African-American on the cusp of becoming our nation's leader. It signals a seismic shift in politics and race relations. It also gives hope to many minorities that they can aspire to become important figures in our society. So, in a sense, I can understand why some people vote for Obama, in part or whole, because he is African-American. It may be dumb to do so, but it is understandable.

On the other hand, to vote against someone because they are African-American is simply racist. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point. So, whereas the former group votes out of hope, the latter group votes out of hate. That's a sweeping generalization and it's not so simple, but I think it captures the gist of how I see this issue.

Personally, I would NEVER consciously vote for or against anyone because of his/her race. Superficial distinctions like race should not be used as a factor in determining whether someone should ascend to the highest position of power in the world.

Finally, as Saden noted, I do not think Obama's race is what is propelling his candidacy. Jesse Jackson didn't go too far in his bid for the presidency and neither did Alan Keyes. Obama has that "it" factor that Reagan, Kennedy and FDR did.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

It's no secret that some people are voting for Obama largely because of his race. It's also no secret that a small minority of Americans are voting against Obama because of his race. I think, however, there is a subtle, yet important distinction between voting for someone because of his/her race and voting against someone because of his/her race.

Mindful of our not so distant past, many Americans find it thrilling to see an African-American on the cusp of becoming our nation's leader. It signals a seismic shift in politics and race relations. It also gives hope to many minorities that they can aspire to become important figures in our society. So, in a sense, I can understand why some people vote for Obama, in part or whole, because he is African-American. It may be dumb to do so, but it is understandable.

On the other hand, to vote against someone because they are African-American is simply racist. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point. So, whereas the former group votes out of hope, the latter group votes out of hate. That's a sweeping generalization and it's not so simple, but I think it captures the gist of how I see this issue.

Personally, I would NEVER consciously vote for or against anyone because of his/her race. Superficial distinctions like race should not be used as a factor in determining whether someone should ascend to the highest position of power in the world.

Finally, as Saden noted, I do not think Obama's race is what is propelling his candidacy. Jesse Jackson didn't go too far in his bid for the presidency and neither did Alan Keyes. Obama has that "it" factor that Reagan, Kennedy and FDR did.

Good points.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

True. To play devil's advocate though, what about those that would vote for Obama because he's Black?

Just throwing it out there. I think Obama could be a fine President, I just personally don't happen to agree with a lot of his opinions

That's not a point people want to speak about though. It's ok / pc to be racist for blacks, just not against them.
Racism is racism, and all of it should cease.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by jsarno

That's not a point people want to speak about though. It's ok / pc to be racist for blacks, just not against them.
Racism is racism, and all of it should cease.

I think we all agree that racism, in whatever form, should cease. The question here is whether it is racist to vote for a presidential candidate in part or whole because that candidate is black.

If your answer is yes, why? I assume your response is that any decision which is affected by someone's race is inherently a racist one. If that is the case, does that mean President Nixon was a racist because his administration aggressively pushed affirmative action? Or how about people who choose not to date people from a similar ethnic background? Does that mean that people who won't adopt kids from outside their race are racist?

I think it's sometimes difficult to discern what is really racist.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I think we all agree that racism, in whatever form, should cease. The question here is whether it is racist to vote for a presidential candidate in part or whole because that candidate is black.

If your answer is yes, why? I assume your response is that any decision which is affected by someone's race is inherently a racist one. If that is the case, does that mean President Nixon was a racist because his administration aggressively pushed affirmative action? Or how about people who choose not to date people from a similar ethnic background? Does that mean that people who won't adopt kids from outside their race are racist?

I think it's sometimes difficult to discern what is really racist.

There has to be an apt rational to justify in part, but to vote for someone in whole because they're black is unacceptable because to vote against someone because they're black is equally unacceptable.

Personally, I believe electing Obama as presidents is an indication that America has come a long ways since the days of slavery and jim crow. It's an indication of progress as well as hope. It tells young African Americans that anything is possible. Finally, we'll be able to stick it to rest of the world (especially Europe) and show them that we don't just talk the talk but that we walk the walk.