What Are You Reading?

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by The Goat

As someone who's been surrounded by racial tension and the abortion issue I could not disagree w/ you more ardently about the "black vote" and the "abortion vote." To your point that liberals have not come through for a main constituency in recent history common sense provides that proactive legislation requires the power of the bully pulpit i.e. the presidency. While Clinton was pres he delivered legislative victories from increased student aid for poor/minority children to the assault weapons ban, which thousands of mayors and police chiefs nationwide have attested to as the primary reason for a diminution in violent crime with inner cities and ghettos (they're also working very hard to have the ban reimplemented). In fact, when Clinton became pres there was a very strong push among conservatives to end student aid altogether (you probably remember this if your about 30 or older) because default rates on student loans were too high. The Clinton admin forced an inquiry and found a handful of colleges nationwide were responsible for most defaults, and that those institutions could be counseled and eventually cut off w/o significant improvement. Minorities are especially benefited by student aid and probably would not have access to grants/loans today w/o the dogged support of the democrat party.
For the last eight years its required fierce battle by progressives/liberals to guarantee the tenets of social security/public services last into the 21st century. Bottom line: the left has delivered for me and people like me over and over again.

The "abortion vote" and the republican party have a much different history however. The highest abortion rates in the history of the country we're during Reagan's presidency (largely because he slashed every facet of social expenditure) and nobody on the right said boo. When abortion rates plummeted during Clinton's presidency the right still screamed and cried to no end that a crisis was underway, and when Clinton proposed the Arkansas law of no third trimester abortions unless for the life of the mom be adopted nationally Gingrich and the conservatives would not let it pass. Many from that group were asked why until years later when it was quietly admitted that the bill would have largely taken the issue away. I have not read the book about Kansas, but it's obvious that the "abortion vote" never wained in the face of such guile, and more pointedly, it's obvious pro-life voters were not even paying enough attention to know what happened. If that is a point the author makes... it probably doesn't much matter.

I follow politics extremely closely and I don't remember Bill Clinton proposing any limits on abortion. In fact he vetoed the ban on the D and X and D and E procedures twice. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the late Democrat from New york referred to these procedures as "infanticide". They are sometimes called "partial birth abortions". Abortion was the one issue that Clinton would never triangulate because he knew that it was the only thing that the feminists really cared about. It helped insure that they overlooked his other proclivities. President Bush, of course, signed the ban on partial birth abortions and the Supreme Court has upheld it. So in at least one area the Republican Party has delivered on this issue and made a difference.

As for Clinton's relationship with African Americans, if they can't see what should be obvious by now - that he is a phony and a hypocrite who has cynically manipulated their passions and their votes all these years - then nothing I could say will make a difference.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by 70Chip

I follow politics extremely closely and I don't remember Bill Clinton proposing any limits on abortion. In fact he vetoed the ban on the D and X and D and E procedures twice.

He vetoed them because the bills pushed through by the Republicans didn't include exceptions for the health and life of the mother. So, while I'm not sure I'd use The Goat's phrasing of Clinton "proposing" the Arkansas law, he (I assume The Goat is a dude?) was correct about Clinton's position.

Regarding books, The Master and Margarita is a great read.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

He vetoed them because the bills pushed through by the Republicans didn't include exceptions for the health and life of the mother. So, while I'm not sure I'd use The Goat's phrasing of Clinton "proposing" the Arkansas law, he (I assume The Goat is a dude?) was correct about Clinton's position.

Regarding books, The Master and Margarita is a great read.

Thanks for clarifying the exception point i'd forgotten.

The women who helped sponsor Clinton's legislation was a pro-lifer and she said it would reduce the number of abortions more than any other piece of legislation - i remember reading an op-ed piece that either quoted her or she wrote herself. It was the same law Clinton had put into place when he was governor and one of the most restrictive at the time. I never understood why people thought he was pro-abortion because his record showed different.

[70Chip]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

He vetoed them because the bills pushed through by the Republicans didn't include exceptions for the health and life of the mother. So, while I'm not sure I'd use The Goat's phrasing of Clinton "proposing" the Arkansas law, he (I assume The Goat is a dude?) was correct about Clinton's position.

Regarding books, The Master and Margarita is a great read.

The "health" exception is a loophole one could drive a zamboni through. The Supreme Court had always interpreted it to include "mental health" and "mental health" was interpeted to mean basically "If I have this baby, I'm really going to be bummed!" So, any so called ban that included these outs represented no change in the law at all. Clinton wanted to be seen as a moderate on abortion, but he never really tried to change the status quo. That'why he vetoed the common sense partial birth abortion ban twice. To suggest otherwise is to turn history on its head.