Ted Nugent on Gun Control

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by jsarno

How do they not prove anything? I am all for hearing your take on this, cause it seems this argument is just about put to bed with these stats. Of course, it's hard to fully judge without a valid argument to the contrary...but so far your arguments to this have been smoke and mirrors at best. So please tell us why these stats don't prove anything.
(disclaimer, I am being 100% genuine, not sarcastic)

The stats do not prove anything because it does not establish a causal relationship between the gun laws and crime. If I told you that the SEC increased securties fraud prosecutions in 2007 and the weather in 2008 was much nicer than in 2007, would you believe that securities fraud prosecutions improve weather conditions?

Since you have decided to label my arguments "smoke and mirrors," let me just say that most of the arguments I've seen around here sound like cheap talking points of the NRA (e.g., "gun control laws only hurt the innocent").

Finally, I don't think you really want to get into a comparison between the U.S. and the U.K. with regard to gun control laws. In the U.S., it is extremely easy to gain access to firearms. In the U.K., it is difficult to gain access to firearms. The U.S. gun crime stats make us look like a third world country in the midst of a civil war when compared with U.K. gun crime stats.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

The stats do not prove anything because it does not establish a causal relationship between the gun laws and crime. If I told you that the SEC increased securties fraud prosecutions in 2007 and the weather in 2008 was much nicer than in 2007, would you believe that securities fraud prosecutions improve weather conditions?

Well, your argument is apples and oranges in regards to the weather, but I do understand your point.
However, it's hard to completely ignore the direct relation here is it not?

Since you have decided to label my arguments "smoke and mirrors," let me just say that most of the arguments I've seen around here sound like cheap talking points of the NRA (e.g., "gun control laws only hurt the innocent").

Is that supposed to devalue the argument? The NRA has one goal in mind (obviously), so to use some of their arguments (not saying anyone is) is not a bad thing. Point being, it's only the validity that matters.

Finally, I don't think you really want to get into a comparison between the U.S. and the U.K. with regard to gun control laws. In the U.S., it is extremely easy to gain access to firearms. In the U.K., it is difficult to gain access to firearms. The U.S. gun crime stats make us look like a third world country in the midst of a civil war when compared with U.K. gun crime stats.

In the UK, it is only difficult to guns if you're law abiding, but yet they have more issues because of it.
I am unsure of your point with your last sentence, cause as someone just posted, the UK has MUCH worse stats than we do and they have much stricter gun laws. Their laws backfired on them. Their intent was good, sure, but the outcome was horrendous. So please explain further what you are meaning by your last sentence, cause I am not getting your intent.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by jsarno

In the UK, it is only difficult to guns if you're law abiding, but yet they have more issues because of it.
I am unsure of your point with your last sentence, cause as someone just posted, the UK has MUCH worse stats than we do and they have much stricter gun laws. Their laws backfired on them. Their intent was good, sure, but the outcome was horrendous. So please explain further what you are meaning by your last sentence, cause I am not getting your intent.

I am too lazy to look up gun crime stats in the U.K. v. the U.S., but I can say with 100% certainty that there are far more incidents involving guns in the U.S. than in the U.K. (both in terms of raw numbers and on a per capita basis).

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I am too lazy to look up gun crime stats in the U.K. v. the U.S., but I can say with 100% certainty that there are far more incidents involving guns in the U.S. than in the U.K. (both in terms of raw numbers and on a per capita basis).

Well you would also need to look up the punishment that goes along with gun crimes. I'd bet that if we looked the countries with the tougher laws also have the lower crime rates so they go hand in hand.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I am too lazy to look up gun crime stats in the U.K. v. the U.S., but I can say with 100% certainty that there are far more incidents involving guns in the U.S. than in the U.K. (both in terms of raw numbers and on a per capita basis).

I guess you missed this...it was already posted by someone:
http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/Lon...ime-EW.xls.pdf

I seriously doubt that the way Violent crimes went up, the gun crimes didn't. Of course that link is not gun crimes per se, but it's a fairly good stat to see what happened after the gun laws occured in the UK.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I guess you missed this...it was already posted by someone:
http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/Lon...ime-EW.xls.pdf

I seriously doubt that the way Violent crimes went up, the gun crimes didn't. Of course that link is not gun crimes per se, but it's a fairly good stat to see what happened after the gun laws occured in the UK.

That's about "violent crime," not gun related crimes. If you can show me, for example, that more people are killed per year on a per capita basis in the UK by guns than in the U.S., I'll give you a picture of me kissing my own ass.
According to sites that I don't think are very reputable (hence no links), there are about 50 gun deaths in the U.K. every year and 30,000 in the U.S. Those stats could be wrong, but I can't find any good links.

Maybe our crime rate is so much higher becaise of a-holes like this.

[saden1]

Did someone just use Hitler and Genocide to support their affinity for the right to bare arms?

[steveo395]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

That's about "violent crime," not gun related crimes. If you can show me, for example, that more people are killed per year on a per capita basis in the UK by guns than in the U.S., I'll give you a picture of me kissing my own ass.
According to sites that I don't think are very reputable (hence no links), there are about 50 gun deaths in the U.K. every year and 30,000 in the U.S. Those stats could be wrong, but I can't find any good links.

Maybe our crime rate is so much higher becaise of a-holes like this.

It doesn't really matter if it is a gun crime or not. Violent crime increased (which may not all be with guns) because the criminals know that people don't have guns to defend themselves. If you were going to rob somebody, wouldn't you rather do it in England because you know whoever you are going after doesn't have a gun to defend themselves. If you thought they had a gun, you wouldn't rob them.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by steveo395

If you thought they had a gun, you wouldn't rob them.

I guess you don't live near a high crime area. A lot of gun-toting drug dealers get robbed, murdered, beat down, etc. I would venture to guess that many young male victims of crime in high crime areas have weapons.

There goes that theory.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

That's about "violent crime," not gun related crimes. If you can show me, for example, that more people are killed per year on a per capita basis in the UK by guns than in the U.S., I'll give you a picture of me kissing my own ass.
According to sites that I don't think are very reputable (hence no links), there are about 50 gun deaths in the U.K. every year and 30,000 in the U.S. Those stats could be wrong, but I can't find any good links.

Maybe our crime rate is so much higher becaise of a-holes like this.

Why are you so focused on gun related DEATH, and could care less about gun related CRIMES? I felt the need to capitalize death and crimes cause you apparently have been missing it. I don't recall, and I don't feel like reading through my posts, but I thought I said of course the deaths here would be higher since they have much stricter gun laws, but gun crimes have gone up considerably and that has already been proven.
So is it safe to assume you could care less about robberies, and muggings and anything related to people using guns in relation to crimes??? Cause I thought the whole point of gun control is to stop gun related CRIMES, not just gun related DEATHS?
To me, it's much more important to stop ALL gun related crimes. Stopping gun related deaths is just a part of stopping all gun related crimes. However, no person here has come up with any good solution to stopping the gun related crimes, just a lot of speculation, and it's clear that getting the guns out of the hands of the innocent is a bad idea and it INCREASES gun related crime. So if you can come up with a solution to stop gun related crimes, I'm all ears.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Why are you so focused on gun related DEATH, and could care less about gun related CRIMES? I felt the need to capitalize death and crimes cause you apparently have been missing it. I don't recall, and I don't feel like reading through my posts, but I thought I said of course the deaths here would be higher since they have much stricter gun laws, but gun crimes have gone up considerably and that has already been proven.
So is it safe to assume you could care less about robberies, and muggings and anything related to people using guns in relation to crimes??? Cause I thought the whole point of gun control is to stop gun related CRIMES, not just gun related DEATHS?
To me, it's much more important to stop ALL gun related crimes. Stopping gun related deaths is just a part of stopping all gun related crimes. However, no person here has come up with any good solution to stopping the gun related crimes, just a lot of speculation, and it's clear that getting the guns out of the hands of the innocent is a bad idea and it INCREASES gun related crime. So if you can come up with a solution to stop gun related crimes, I'm all ears.

Where exactly did you, or anyone else, prove that any changes in gun laws led to an increase in crime? You seem to have an awfully hard time distinguishing between causation and correlation.