Kudos to Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato

[Schneed10]

Too many posts to respond to by quoting, so I'll do it all here:

1) The change from Gibbs to Zorn could very well be an upgrade on offense, who knows. But I promise you, not in the motivational category. Gibbs' December record was crazy. Let's not forget that we were a very mediocre team until Taylor died and Gibbs willed the team forward, and Collins came in to execute a system he's been in long enough to teach it at Harvard.

2) Wade Phillips and Mike Tomlin, huh. Let's see, what do they have in common? Oh yeah, they took over a team with unquestioned leaders at QB who had kick-ass seasons in their recent pasts. The year before Wade took over, Romo started 10 games after taking over for Bledsoe, getting red hot, and posting a QB rating of 95. Tomlin took over a team that went 8-8 the year before and guided them to a 10-6 record a year later. That 8-8 season, Roethlisberger was coming off his career worst season. Reason? He had Hines Ward and a bunch of chumps to throw to. Last year Tomlin takes over, and Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller grow out of their rookie seasons into decent targets. Point being, give an established QB like Big Ben multiple reliable targets, and he's going to do well. Norv Turner? He took over Phillip Rivers, who's nothing to write home about. Maybe that's why the Chargers took a step back last year in regular season record. They still made the playoffs because they easily have the most talent in the NFL. They made the playoffs DESPITE Norv.

Let's think about another instant success. Sean Payton... Drew Brees.

Point being? What do we have at QB? A question mark, that's what. Campbell is promising, but it's not like taking over a real strong QB situation. Phillips, Tomlin, and Payton aren't comparable situations. It's not fair to Zorn.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Too many posts to respond to by quoting, so I'll do it all here:

1) The change from Gibbs to Zorn could very well be an upgrade on offense, who knows. But I promise you, not in the motivational category. Gibbs' December record was crazy. Let's not forget that we were a very mediocre team until Taylor died and Gibbs willed the team forward, and Collins came in to execute a system he's been in long enough to teach it at Harvard.

2) Wade Phillips and Mike Tomlin, huh. Let's see, what do they have in common? Oh yeah, they took over a team with unquestioned leaders at QB who had kick-ass seasons in their recent pasts. The year before Wade took over, Romo started 10 games after taking over for Bledsoe, getting red hot, and posting a QB rating of 95. Tomlin took over a team that went 8-8 the year before and guided them to a 10-6 record a year later. That 8-8 season, Roethlisberger was coming off his career worst season. Reason? He had Hines Ward and a bunch of chumps to throw to. Last year Tomlin takes over, and Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller grow out of their rookie seasons into decent targets. Point being, give an established QB like Big Ben multiple reliable targets, and he's going to do well. Norv Turner? He took over Phillip Rivers, who's nothing to write home about. Maybe that's why the Chargers took a step back last year in regular season record. They still made the playoffs because they easily have the most talent in the NFL. They made the playoffs DESPITE Norv.

Let's think about another instant success. Sean Payton... Drew Brees.

Point being? What do we have at QB? A question mark, that's what. Campbell is promising, but it's not like taking over a real strong QB situation. Phillips, Tomlin, and Payton aren't comparable situations. It's not fair to Zorn.

Well it goes without saying that those of us who are optimistic about next season are absolutely assuming Campbell will develop into the player we think he can be: a legitimate winning NFL starting quarterback. To argue that, should our QB not take some significant steps forward over the course of the next year we will be in trouble, is one thing. To argue that the change at coach somehow precludes this is another entirely. I for one think that our offense will be improved next year, and thus remain optimistic.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Well it goes without saying that those of us who are optimistic about next season are absolutely assuming Campbell will develop into the player we think he can be: a legitimate winning NFL starting quarterback. To argue that, should our QB not take some significant steps forward over the course of the next year we will be in trouble, is one thing. To argue that the change at coach somehow precludes this is another entirely. I for one think that our offense will be improved next year, and thus remain optimistic.

On the bolded part, I vehemently disagree. The fact that Campbell has not yet established himself as a stud QB, COMBINED with the fact that he'll be working under a new coach in a new system in Zorn, reduces the chances that the offense will click successfully in year 1.

Because with Brees, Payton got a QB who already had a stud season. With Roethisberger, Tomlin got a guy who had led his team to a SB win. With Romo, Wade got a guy who set the world on fire in the final 10 games of the previous season.

Turner? He got an up and coming QB in Rivers, who hadn't yet arrived. What happened? The coaching change resulted in a worse record than the year before. Now when you've got that line, plus Tomlinson, plus that defense, you can still make the playoffs. But the Redskins don't have SD's talent to get them through the flux of a coaching change.

There's not a lot of precedence for instant success when you combine a new head coach with a not-yet-established NFL QB. Can you think of any recently? I can't.

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

On the bolded part, I vehemently disagree. The fact that Campbell has not yet established himself as a stud QB, COMBINED with the fact that he'll be working under a new coach in a new system in Zorn, reduces the chances that the offense will click successfully in year 1.

Because with Brees, Payton got a QB who already had a stud season. With Roethisberger, Tomlin got a guy who had led his team to a SB win. With Romo, Wade got a guy who set the world on fire in the final 10 games of the previous season.

Turner? He got an up and coming QB in Rivers, who hadn't yet arrived. What happened? The coaching change resulted in a worse record than the year before. Now when you've got that line, plus Tomlinson, plus that defense, you can still make the playoffs. But the Redskins don't have SD's talent to get them through the flux of a coaching change.

There's not a lot of precedence for instant success when you combine a new head coach with a not-yet-established NFL QB. Can you think of any recently? I can't.

Well if you are going to bring up the Sean Peyton example from that year you would also have to talk about the Jets and Mangini, who while not necessarily having a not yet established qb, did have a tumultuous situation that I would think to be worse than ours. As for your other examples, fair enough, but I think it’s important to point out that all those players got better under their new coaches (Rivers notwithstanding). Roethilsberger had followed a disastrous Superbowl performance with an even more disastrous season, and I don't think many were expecting him to grow into the elite passer he became last year. Romo, after a hot start in 06, had faded down the stretch and was not a sure thing by any means. Rivers? I think his struggles had more to do with his deficiencies as a player than with the coaching change, as Turner, in spite of his abundant faults, has a stellar record of working with quarterbacks. Even Brees was not known to be more than a good QB prior to his teaming with Peyton, who brought his game to another level.

There are also examples (Alex Smith comes to mind) of players who greatly regressed under new tutelage. But my point is that historical precedence does exist for QB's getting better after a coaching change.

I think your position is prudent and almost certainly represents the conventional wisdom around the league vis-à-vis the Skins; however, after a summer of Kool Aid drinking I am buying into Zorn and banking that JC will take a huge step forward this year. I also took a trip to Amsterdam this summer – now that's some Kool Aid they have over there! But that's another story...