FISA with Telecom Immunity Passed

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by That Guy

and parts of the middle east have hated us intensely since the 50s (formation of isreal, overthrow of iranian democracy for british oil interests). the war on terror is an endless and "fake" war. we have intelligence agencies and special operations groups, and if the "war" ended tomorrow, nothing would change... the security has been improved (though it's still not great).

We definitely agree on this point. While I don't think war on terror itself is fake, we should be fighting it in a much more clandestine way. I don't like the idea of our troops basically being targets to draw out terrorists. Mass deployments are also ridiculously expensive.

When Bush 1 stopped from going all the way into Iraq in Desert Storm he was heavily criticized, it appears he had a lot more wisdom than many gave him credit for.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

We definitely agree on this point. While I don't think war on terror itself is fake, we should be fighting it in a much more clandestine way. I don't like the idea of our troops basically being targets to draw out terrorists. Mass deployments are also ridiculously expensive.

When Bush 1 stopped from going all the way into Iraq in Desert Storm he was heavily criticized, it appears he had a lot more wisdom than many gave him credit for.

they set mission goals, they drew up the contingencies, and they followed their plan.

powell is a better man than rumsfeld and cheney combined. too bad he got played in the whole deal :/. rumsfeld's "plan as you go without intel" version of waging a war is just about the stupidest thing i've ever seen.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by That Guy

powell is a better man than rumsfeld and cheney combined. too bad he got played in the whole deal :/. rumsfeld's "plan as you go without intel" version of waging a war is just about the stupidest thing i've ever seen.

Ding ding we have a winner. I think less of Rumsfeld than almost any person on the face of this earth. Bush has done a bad job but with pretty good intentions. Cheney's methods were crap but again I think he really had "good" intentions. But that jackass Rumsfeld perpetrated his deeds in the name of his ego and vanity. I am convinced we'd all have a much better view of Bush and his administration had Powell been running the deal rather than Rumsfeld. Hell even Tenet was better prepared to wage this war.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Ding ding we have a winner. I think less of Rumsfeld than almost any person on the face of this earth. Bush has done a bad job but with pretty good intentions. Cheney's methods were crap but again I think he really had "good" intentions. But that jackass Rumsfeld perpetrated his deeds in the name of his ego and vanity. I am convinced we'd all have a much better view of Bush and his administration had Powell been running the deal rather than Rumsfeld. Hell even Tenet was better prepared to wage this war.

this post makes me chuckle. who appointed Donald Rumsfeld? in politics, its all about choices, and making sure you make the right ones. its not like Rumsfeld had changed his philosophies over the years. and im sure the decisions that were made were discussed, ad nauseum, in the war room( with the president present) and if the president wasn't involved in those decisions, its his fault for giving Rumsfeld free reign, to making some of the most important decisions of the world. im not ready to give president Bush a free pass on the Iraq mess

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by dmek25

this post makes me chuckle. who appointed Donald Rumsfeld? in politics, its all about choices, and making sure you make the right ones. its not like Rumsfeld had changed his philosophies over the years. and im sure the decisions that were made were discussed, ad nauseum, in the war room( with the president present) and if the president wasn't involved in those decisions, its his fault for giving Rumsfeld free reign, to making some of the most important decisions of the world. im not ready to give president Bush a free pass on the Iraq mess

No free passes I agree but I can't be reasonable and think that the catalyst behind so much of the crap was Rumsfeld? This is what baffles me about politics. I have no allegiance to Bush more than Rumsfeld. I look at the two and ask myself "Which of these two guys is most directly responsible for the mess in Iraq?" Well Bush got us in but Rumsfeld blew it. Crap rolls up hill for sure and Bush certainly has his failings but in the case of the execution of our "plan" in Iraq you have look at Rumsfeld and say he was the causation. I don't understand why everything has to be laid right at Bush's feet and the mere mention that others had larger roles in policy is giving him a "free pass". I am simply talking about what actually happened. And what actually happened was that our President relied on Rumsfeld to do a job that he did poorly at best. Bush's screw up was Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld's screw up was our sh*t plan for actually doing our job once we rolled over Iraq's joke of an army.