Judge Sides With Redskins in Team Name Suit

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

When a poll is conducted by an Ivy League institution, you can rest assured that the population was sampled in a sufficiently random manner. Meaning when you sample 768 people in a random manner, you get a conclusive result that can be used to approximate the sentiments of the Native American population in general. And I think it's pretty safe to say that this poll does not carry a 50%+ margin of error - the overwhelming response of 90% - 10% says it all. I recognize most people don't understand statistical sampling and how it can be a true barometer for a population's sentiments - I can give a math lesson if you wish. To suggest that this poll means nothing because it only sampled a small portion of Native Americans is to completely dismiss the mathematical foundation for nearly every scientific and sociological research endeavor over the last 100 years.

Here's my question. Who the eff cares about what someone said in a book?? I've got a brain of my own, I don't need to read a book to be told what to think. I can consider the other side's point of view on my own, objectively, without reading these opinions. A book is one man's opinion - for every book you mention I can probably find a book with the opposing viewpoint. Mathematics, however, are cut and dry.

I've actually read your posts re: statistics in other threads, Schneed. And I've actually taken three statistics classes in two different departments (in undergraduate and graduate levels). I'm going to guess (correct me if I'm wrong) that you've taken statistics in some type of economics or finance background. My two statistics classes were in a grad-level education psychology and undergrad sociological research.

I can almost tell what your next argument will be- "sociology and education are bunch of liberal hullabaloo and aren't legitimate resources for statistics." Now I ask you- who are you to say which statistics are more legitimate than another? What I did learn in my statistics classes (among concepts like random sampling, standard deviation, normal distribution, central limit theorem and f-tests) is that polls are reflections of numbers set to a sample. There aren't true measures of success when dealing in context. What I learned from statistics research, textbooks and instruction is that you're suppose to use stats (in the form of polls and hard numbers) as part of a larger schema.

Fine, I can't convince you to read anything re: NA history- continue as you will. I'll play your game of just dealing with polls and numbers, then. Let's take a hypothetical situation of GPA scores. Hypothetically speaking, is the student with the 4.0 GPA is smarter than the kid with a 3.7? Not necessarily... the student with the 4.0 just happened to get better grades. GPA doesn't account for honors classes, selected course load, extra-curricular activities, etc. If you take a line graph of SATs scores vs. college success, do the kids who scored higher on the tests plot higher on the y-axis? What I learned in my Educational and Evaluation class is that higher test scores don't equal success (and these results were from the polls and math you deem to tell the entire story). Math doesn't tell the entire story, but if math classes are the only ones you've ever bothered to take I can see why you'd have such a myopic view of things.

So how exactly does this pertain to what we're talking about? You say this poll reflects an overwhelming majority of NA who aren't offended by the term. There's a reason people tend to change their opinion about this very issue once they've done some actual research into it (yes, that includes reading books). Did you know several Redskins players also went from "who cares" to "now I understand" after a certain time? I don't have time to break down everything I've read, but since you're so stuck on math and hard numbers to tell the whole story, this may resonate somewhat:

In my research (years ago in high school and undergrad), I analyzed polls (yes hard numbers) that showed NAs have highly disproportionate levels of low self-esteem compared to other social groups. Statistics (which is what you're looking for) show that over half the NA population on reservations are unemployed. NAs are three times more likely to become alcoholics than other ethnic groups. These factors are direct causation of low self-worth. If a person has a low sense of self, chances are they're not going to be offended by someone hurling a personal insult against them. Why would he/she be offended by a negative connotation against the general group? Answer? He/she won't be... if they've got no sense of self in the first place, they don't find fault with the word to describe the group population. *Of course, this is just what I've come to learn- it's not something I pulled out of thin air... go ahead and dispute it with your innate logic that trumps years and years and specialized research and writing.

In polls where I've seen NA support for the term "redskins" and other sports mascots, college-educated NA are actually the total opposite. Those in college are overwhelmingly against these names. Yet look at these hard numbers: Poll conducted by National Center for Educational Statistics

Gee, if NAs make up less than 1% of the country's college enrollment I'd go out on a limb and say there aren't very many NAs that make it off the res. The ones that do are most certainly against it, but the numbers are so miniscule, the dissent pales in comparison to the "overwhelming" non-offended left on the reservations.

But I'm sure anything I say (including numbers, polls, official dictionary definitions, etc) are going to be summarily dismissed by what you know and how you think. Your assertion is that the majority of NAs polled find no offense to the term "redskins", thus the moniker is acceptable. My point of contention is that we don't need to wait for a NA poll conducted by an Ivy league to make the change. Who says you need to be NA to be offended?

[Schneed10]

Wow, this post was long. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I'm going to break it up to address a few things.

Originally Posted by itvnetop

I've actually read your posts re: statistics in other threads, Schneed. And I've actually taken three statistics classes in two different departments (in undergraduate and graduate levels). I'm going to guess (correct me if I'm wrong) that you've taken statistics in some type of economics or finance background. My two statistics classes were in a grad-level education psychology and undergrad sociological research.

I can almost tell what your next argument will be- "sociology and education are bunch of liberal hullabaloo and aren't legitimate resources for statistics." Now I ask you- who are you to say which statistics are more legitimate than another? What I did learn in my statistics classes (among concepts like random sampling, standard deviation, normal distribution, central limit theorem and f-tests) is that polls are reflections of numbers set to a sample. There aren't true measures of success when dealing in context. What I learned from statistics research, textbooks and instruction is that you're suppose to use stats (in the form of polls and hard numbers) as part of a larger schema.

I'm glad to hear we're speaking the same language. Stats are stats, it doesn't matter which discipline you're applying it to. Mine was first a business statistics course, then I delved deeper when I completed my minor in math and took straight up statistics. In my MBA program we hit it again during the risk management courses.

Polls are indeed set to a sample. But you'll recall from your classes that if you select your sample in a sufficiently random fashion, and drive your n high enough, your result will approximate within a certain level of confidence or margin of error, the true sentiment of the overall population. Speaking just on math terms alone, that'd have to be one GIGANTIC margin of error for a 90%-10% result to have a chance at swinging around the other way.

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Fine, I can't convince you to read anything re: NA history- continue as you will. I'll play your game of just dealing with polls and numbers, then. Let's take a hypothetical situation of GPA scores. Hypothetically speaking, is the student with the 4.0 GPA is smarter than the kid with a 3.7? Not necessarily... the student with the 4.0 just happened to get better grades. GPA doesn't account for honors classes, selected course load, extra-curricular activities, etc. If you take a line graph of SATs scores vs. college success, do the kids who scored higher on the tests plot higher on the y-axis? What I learned in my Educational and Evaluation class is that higher test scores don't equal success (and these results were from the polls and math you deem to tell the entire story). Math doesn't tell the entire story, but if math classes are the only ones you've ever bothered to take I can see why you'd have such a myopic view of things.

I would actually beg to differ, math can fully explain a correlation between college GPA and the student. SAT scores alone could not adequately do so, nor could high school GPA. There would be multiple variables driving success. I would say study time per week would be the largest factor, IQ would be second, degree of difficulty of courses chosen, degree of difficulty of teachers chosen, hours of sleep per night, and a few others. Granted, there will be some human elements that cannot be easily quantified. For example, those who are good under pressure and stress will tend to perform better on those timed final exams. But a strong enough correlation could easily be established using the quantifiable factors alone.

Originally Posted by itvnetop

So how exactly does this pertain to what we're talking about? You say this poll reflects an overwhelming majority of NA who aren't offended by the term. There's a reason people tend to change their opinion about this very issue once they've done some actual research into it (yes, that includes reading books). Did you know several Redskins players also went from "who cares" to "now I understand" after a certain time? I don't have time to break down everything I've read, but since you're so stuck on math and hard numbers to tell the whole story, this may resonate somewhat:

In my research (years ago in high school and undergrad), I analyzed polls (yes hard numbers) that showed NAs have highly disproportionate levels of low self-esteem compared to other social groups. Statistics (which is what you're looking for) show that over half the NA population on reservations are unemployed. NAs are three times more likely to become alcoholics than other ethnic groups. These factors are direct causation of low self-worth. If a person has a low sense of self, chances are they're not going to be offended by someone hurling a personal insult against them. Why would he/she be offended by a negative connotation against the general group? Answer? He/she won't be... if they've got no sense of self in the first place, they don't find fault with the word to describe the group population. *Of course, this is just what I've come to learn- it's not something I pulled out of thin air... go ahead and dispute it with your innate logic that trumps years and years and specialized research and writing.

I would agree with the concept that a low sense of self-worth could drive alcoholism, and even antipathy towards the issue. But I haven't seen you present anything establishing a causal relationship between the ethnicity that is Native American, or historical attitude towards Native Americans, and low self worth. Once again, covariances enter the equation. I'd venture a guess that the biggest driver of low self-worth is poverty. We see it across all ethnicities. Black people don't have higher rates of unemployment and lower SAT scores than whites because they're dumber than whites, they have them because they are, as a population, poorer. And thereby disadvantaged. There are many, many potential causes for low self worth.

Originally Posted by itvnetop

In polls where I've seen NA support for the term "redskins" and other sports mascots, college-educated NA are actually the total opposite. Those in college are overwhelmingly against these names. Yet look at these hard numbers: Poll conducted by National Center for Educational Statistics

Gee, if NAs make up less than 1% of the country's college enrollment I'd go out on a limb and say there aren't very many NAs that make it off the res. The ones that do are most certainly against it, but the numbers are so miniscule, the dissent pales in comparison to the "overwhelming" non-offended left on the reservations.

But I'm sure anything I say (including numbers, polls, official dictionary definitions, etc) are going to be summarily dismissed by what you know and how you think. Your assertion is that the majority of NAs polled find no offense to the term "redskins", thus the moniker is acceptable. My point of contention is that we don't need to wait for a NA poll conducted by an Ivy league to make the change.

Here's the thing that bothers me. Why is an "educated" man's opinion more valid than a non-educated man's opinion? Why is a college graduate's opinion more relevant? To suggest so reeks of intellectual arrogance (and I recognize the irony of me saying so).

The guy who dropped out in 7th grade should get just as much say as the guy who graduated college. I can't accept any argument leaning on a specific sub-population for the sake of making a point.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Here's the thing that bothers me. Why is an "educated" man's opinion more valid than a non-educated man's opinion? Why is a college graduate's opinion more relevant? To suggest so reeks of intellectual arrogance (and I recognize the irony of me saying so).

The guy who dropped out in 7th grade should get just as much say as the guy who graduated college. I can't accept any argument leaning on a specific sub-population for the sake of making a point.

Thanks for the responses, Schneed. You make some good points.

Regarding the "educated" vs. "non-educated" opinion, I don't discount either viewpoint- one is equal to the other. I should have expounded on these statistics a bit further. The comparison wasn't meant to say that the opinions of college kids hold more weight than the non-college NAs. The example merely shows the wide gap of the thinking between these two groups.

The only difference between the them is the access to information. Not saying those on the reservation don't have the same means to read and research... It's just that a campus environment is constructed around learning and research. While NAs on the reservations have to worry about finding employment or feeding their families, a college student has the leeway/time (or at least more time, depending on their financial situation) to focus on reading, analyzing and evaluating whatever they choose to learn. It's a good bet many of these students walk onto campus not really being offended by certain things; after a few years of study, they leave with another viewpoint.

The ones left behind aren't stupid just because they don't get to attend (they'd probably be able to school most of us in basic survival techniques)... they just aren't able to drop their obligations to spend a few years reading books, writing essays and taking exams. It's just unfortunate that enrollment numbers reflect a seemingly insurmountable task for NAs when it comes to leaving the reservation for college.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Thanks for the responses, Schneed. You make some good points.

Regarding the "educated" vs. "non-educated" opinion, I don't discount either viewpoint- one is equal to the other. I should have expounded on these statistics a bit further. The comparison wasn't meant to say that the opinions of college kids hold more weight than the non-college NAs. The example merely shows the wide gap of the thinking between these two groups.

The only difference between the them is the access to information. Not saying those on the reservation don't have the same means to read and research... It's just that a campus environment is constructed around learning and research. While NAs on the reservations have to worry about finding employment or feeding their families, a college student has the leeway/time (or at least more time, depending on their financial situation) to focus on reading, analyzing and evaluating whatever they choose to learn. It's a good bet many of these students walk onto campus not really being offended by certain things; after a few years of study, they leave with another viewpoint.

The ones left behind aren't stupid just because they don't get to attend (they'd probably be able to school most of us in basic survival techniques)... they just aren't able to drop their obligations to spend a few years reading books, writing essays and taking exams. It's just unfortunate that enrollment numbers reflect a seemingly insurmountable task for NAs when it comes to leaving the reservation for college.

I can certainly understand that the more you read about certain things, the more outraged you get. The more I read about Bush and company's handling of the events leading up to the Iraq war, the more I regret voting for him. But that's another discussion...

The Iraq war though, is something that you need to read about to truly understand. However, a term referring to your ethnicity? I'm not sure you need to read and study that much for that one. I guess some people do (there is undoubtedly some historical context involved) as evidenced by your stats which I am not ignoring. But for most I think, a racial slur produces a visceral emotional reaction, thus someone becomes "offended" or finds it "offensive". I don't think it's an intellectual response for most people, I don't think you need much study on it. Most folks either feel offended by a characterization, or feel ambivalent towards it.

This has been a fruitful discussion and I have enjoyed it. I apologize for taking the condescending tone I did earlier in the thread.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

This has been a fruitful discussion and I have enjoyed it.

As have I. Cheers, mate.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

In polls where I've seen NA support for the term "redskins" and other sports mascots, college-educated NA are actually the total opposite. Those in college are overwhelmingly against these names.

I don't believe this is the case. From the Univ. of Penn study referenced: "Annenberg polled 768 Indians in every state except Hawaii and Alaska from Oct. 7, 2003, to Sept. 20, 2004. The survey found little disparity between men and women or young and old. However, 13 percent of Indians with college degrees said the name is offensive, compared with 9 percent of those with some college and 6 percent of those with a high school education or less. Among self-identified liberals, 14 percent found the term disparaging, compared with 6 percent of conservatives."

There is not a "total opposite" shift in opinion with college educated Native Americans.

SI also did an article on this back in 2002:

SI.com - Magazine - SI Flashback: The Indian Wars - Wednesday August 17, 2005 10:10AM

The percentages in their polls were not 90/10, but around 70/30, still a big majority not offended. The main point in the SI article is that there's a big disconnect between Native American activists and the Native American people.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I don't believe this is the case. From the Univ. of Penn study referenced: "Annenberg polled 768 Indians in every state except Hawaii and Alaska from Oct. 7, 2003, to Sept. 20, 2004. The survey found little disparity between men and women or young and old. However, 13 percent of Indians with college degrees said the name is offensive, compared with 9 percent of those with some college and 6 percent of those with a high school education or less. Among self-identified liberals, 14 percent found the term disparaging, compared with 6 percent of conservatives."

There is not a "total opposite" shift in opinion with college educated Native Americans.

I'm interested in seeing this study... I'd also like to see the breakdown in tribal percentages and such (was one tribe represented more than another, etc). Also, was the poll regarding the term "redskins" or just NA mascots, in general?

I have to go back into my university's database to find my earlier research sources, but I remember numbers that wholeheartedly contradict the 9-13 percent found in both this Annenberg poll and an SI poll (conducted with half the sample size a year earlier). The percentage of college mascots and images that have been transformed or removed altogether dwarfs their professional sports counterparts. The NCAA has started to crack down because the activism is coming directly from college campuses.

Post article on polls

This article even shows how several polls reveal totally opposite results within a NA sample (not exclusively activists, either). One polls contradicts the other with entirely flip-flopped percentages. I'm guessing methodology (sample selection, survey language, etc) varied immensely between the Annenberg/SI polls and the Indian Country poll.

You can't discount cultural factors, as well. Rob Schmidt (who represents activism through his comics... much like Aaron McGruder does with "Boondocks") states, "Native people are known for not trusting Anglos and not speaking openly to them in initial encounters. What steps did Harris Field Center take to overcome this propensity? Can Harris assure us the Native people questioned said what they really think? That they didn't say mascots are okay to avoid 'making waves'?"

I believe polls surveying opinion/emotion have much higher probability of flawed methodology and possibly bias (the way a question is loaded has everything to with results), as opposed to polls based on hard numbers like scores, salaries, etc. Here's a link to a number of educational research based on scientific methodology regarding this very issue (skip the APA statement and go to the citations for the actual studies):

APA Resolution

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

I'm interested in seeing this study... I'd also like to see the breakdown in tribal percentages and such (was one tribe represented more than another, etc). Also, was the poll regarding the term "redskins" or just NA mascots, in general?

I have to go back into my university's database to find my earlier research sources, but I remember numbers that wholeheartedly contradict the 9-13 percent found in both this Annenberg poll and an SI poll (conducted with half the sample size a year earlier). The percentage of college mascots and images that have been transformed or removed altogether dwarfs their professional sports counterparts. The NCAA has started to crack down because the activism is coming directly from college campuses.

Post article on polls

This article even shows how several polls reveal totally opposite results within a NA sample (not exclusively activists, either). One polls contradicts the other with entirely flip-flopped percentages. I'm guessing methodology (sample selection, survey language, etc) varied immensely between the Annenberg/SI polls and the Indian Country poll.

You can't discount cultural factors, as well. Rob Schmidt (who represents activism through his comics... much like Aaron McGruder does with "Boondocks") states, "Native people are known for not trusting Anglos and not speaking openly to them in initial encounters. What steps did Harris Field Center take to overcome this propensity? Can Harris assure us the Native people questioned said what they really think? That they didn't say mascots are okay to avoid 'making waves'?"

I believe polls surveying opinion/emotion have much higher probability of flawed methodology and possibly bias (the way a question is loaded has everything to with results), as opposed to polls based on hard numbers like scores, salaries, etc. Here's a link to a number of educational research based on scientific methodology regarding this very issue (skip the APA statement and go to the citations for the actual studies):

APA Resolution

Dude, you made this so technical you took the fun out of talking about it.