ESPN: Is Campbell a break out player?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Angry

The guy is writing about fantasy football and that is where he needs to stay no doubt.

Now, in his defense when you are refering to the value of Santana Moss in fantasy football even I agree that you would not pick him up to be your #1 option. He will hurt your feelings with his feast or famine performances. There are much better fantasy options out there in Fantasy land.

What I do not concur with is that he was making direct refrences to the player as being not a true number one reciever on the team or that the team is lacking a No. 1 reciever. That is where he crosses the line and needs to go back to his corner (in fantasy land) and shut up. If he can name 31 recievers better than Santana (currently on a NFL roster) then I might believe that he (Santana) is not a true number 1. He cannot, so he needs to know his role writing about Fantasy Value and thats it!

Not to pee in your cheerios angry, but Moss ranked 39th last year (in normal leagues) as a fantasy WR. He ranked 46th in TD leagues.

Also, he is projected to be the 31st best WR this year according to different magazines.
Being projected 31st and being ranked 39th / 46th last year means he should be a 3rd wr at best for your team. (considering most leagues are made up of 10-14 teams)

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Not to pee in your cheerios angry, but Moss ranked 39th last year (in normal leagues) as a fantasy WR. He ranked 46th in TD leagues.

Also, he is projected to be the 31st best WR this year according to different magazines.
Being projected 31st and being ranked 39th / 46th last year means he should be a 3rd wr at best for your team. (considering most leagues are made up of 10-14 teams)

Fortunately, the best players in the NFL arent decided by the stats from one season. Name 31 other recievers that made the Pro Bowl in the passed 3 seasons.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Angry

Fortunately, the best players in the NFL arent decided by the stats from one season. Name 31 other recievers that made the Pro Bowl in the passed 3 seasons.

No, they are judged by what they do over the course of each game, and multiple seasons. You don't look at a player from 3 years ago and say he's a stud now unless he was consistant over those 3 years.

FYI- Moss was 26th in td leagues in 06, 30th in normal leagues in 06.

He has not been a "pro bowler" or a #1 wr since 05. I'm not going to do the math, but I am betting that there are well over 30 players with stats better than Moss' over that 2 year span. Your comment of pro bowl wr's does not hold water due to the fact that was 3 years ago. No one is saying he wasn't great in 05, but he has fallen...and fallen far!
ps- Rod Smith was a pro bowler in 05, does that mean he should be a #1 wr??? By your comment / logic he should be, and we both know that would be crazy to say.

ps- if you can count what happened 3 years ago, why not count 04 when he had only 45 catches for 838 yards????
Saying he's a #1 wr when he has AVERAGED 58 catches, and 799 yards over the past 2 years...well that means we should get another #1. Those numbers are terrible for a #1.

Consistancy is the key.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by jsarno

No, they are judged by what they do over the course of each game, and multiple seasons. You don't look at a player from 3 years ago and say he's a stud now unless he was consistant over those 3 years.

FYI- Moss was 26th in td leagues in 06, 30th in normal leagues in 06.

He has not been a "pro bowler" or a #1 wr since 05. I'm not going to do the math, but I am betting that there are well over 30 players with stats better than Moss' over that 2 year span. Your comment of pro bowl wr's does not hold water due to the fact that was 3 years ago. No one is saying he wasn't great in 05, but he has fallen...and fallen far!
ps- Rod Smith was a pro bowler in 05, does that mean he should be a #1 wr??? By your comment / logic he should be, and we both know that would be crazy to say.

ps- if you can count what happened 3 years ago, why not count 04 when he had only 45 catches for 838 yards????
Saying he's a #1 wr when he has AVERAGED 58 catches, and 799 yards over the past 2 years...well that means we should get another #1. Those numbers are terrible for a #1.

Consistancy is the key.

Look, ask yourself this "How many teams could Moss start for"? "How many teams could he be the number 1 for?" Without exact numbers and based on ability, the answer is "the majority of NFL teams".

I am not talking about stats and all of the other hoopla. Of coarse Moss doesn't have great stats. He was in a shit system with sub-par QB play (nothing against Campbell, Gibbs or Saunders).

If you do want to include numbers, then Moss's YPC speak volumes. He is a game breaker with the ball in his hands (you just gotta get it there first). I am not saying that he is the best, but definately top 30 based on ability, not stats.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Angry

Look, ask yourself this "How many teams could Moss start for"? "How many teams could he be the number 1 for?" Without exact numbers and based on ability, the answer is "the majority of NFL teams".

I am not talking about stats and all of the other hoopla. Of coarse Moss doesn't have great stats. He was in a shit system with sub-par QB play (nothing against Campbell, Gibbs or Saunders).

If you do want to include numbers, then Moss's YPC speak volumes. He is a game breaker with the ball in his hands (you just gotta get it there first). I am not saying that he is the best, but definately top 30 based on ability, not stats.

Saying he is a top 30 is not saying much for him. I actually think he has top 15 talent...maybe better...but he never stays healthy, and he doesn't produce like he should including drops.

Moss YPC was 13.2 in 06 which ranked 54th in the NFL (10 or more receptions), in 07 Moss YPC was 14.4 which ranked 45th in the NFL (10 or more receptions).
So to say he is a game breaker is not really accurate anymore. He was in 05, he has fallen in 06 and 07.

How many teams could Moss start for...most of them. But all teams start a min. of 2 wr's. How many would he be #1 on, just a couple at best. But that speaks more to those teams than it does to Moss. Randle El could be a #1 in Tennessee, does that mean he should be our #1? In Arizona last year, Moss would have been a 3, possibly 4. Same in Indy, and in NE.
You are basing your opinions on ability...and I'll agree with you, he has a lot of talent...but there are PLENTY of players that come through the NFL that do not let their talent come to fruition. Talent means only so much when you're not being consistant or producing. You HAVE to judge on productivity! It's not like he's a rookie or anything.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Angry

Fortunately, the best players in the NFL arent decided by the stats from one season. Name 31 other recievers that made the Pro Bowl in the passed 3 seasons.

I can name all the WR's that performed better than him each of the past two years. (albeit some are just slightly)

(in no particular order)

1- Harrison
2- Driver
3- Chad Johnson
4- Wayne
5- Holt
6- Owens
7- Roy Williams
8- Steve Smith
9- Lee Evans
10- Andre Johnson
11- Houshmandzadeh
12- Coles
13- Furrey
14- Javon Walker
15- Colston
16- Boldin
17- Galloway
18- Burress
19- Darryl Jackson
20- Glenn
21- Cotchery
22- Ward
23- Bruce
24- Fitzgerald
25- Mark Clayton
26- Wes Welker
27- Braylon Edwards
28- Reggie Brown
29- Muhammad
30- Randy Moss
31- Brandon Marshall
32- Curtis
33- White
34- Bobby Engram
35- Burleson
36- Mason
37- Jennings
38- Bowe
39- Holmes
40- McDonald
41- Berrian
42- Chambers
43- Walter
44- Crayton

Please note, I am not saying that all these wr's I would take over Moss, just saying they all performed better.

I wish we could live in the 3 years ago, but we can't. I sincerely hope that Moss will be in 05 form this year too...but all signs point to very doubtful.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I can name all the WR's that performed better than him each of the past two years. (albeit some are just slightly)

(in no particular order)

1- Harrison
2- Driver
3- Chad Johnson
4- Wayne
5- Holt
6- Owens
7- Roy Williams
8- Steve Smith
9- Lee Evans
10- Andre Johnson
11- Houshmandzadeh
12- Coles
13- Furrey
14- Javon Walker
15- Colston
16- Boldin
17- Galloway
18- Burress
19- Darryl Jackson
20- Glenn
21- Cotchery
22- Ward
23- Bruce
24- Fitzgerald
25- Mark Clayton
26- Wes Welker
27- Braylon Edwards
28- Reggie Brown
29- Muhammad
30- Randy Moss
31- Brandon Marshall
32- Curtis
33- White
34- Bobby Engram
35- Burleson
36- Mason
37- Jennings
38- Bowe
39- Holmes
40- McDonald
41- Berrian
42- Chambers
43- Walter
44- Crayton

Please note, I am not saying that all these wr's I would take over Moss, just saying they all performed better.

I wish we could live in the 3 years ago, but we can't. I sincerely hope that Moss will be in 05 form this year too...but all signs point to very doubtful.

I hope so as well, but I am curious about what signs make his return to "Pro Bowl form" doubtfull. Be sure to read post 13 as well. I don't think you saw it.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Angry

I hope so as well, but I am curious about what signs make his return to "Pro Bowl form" doubtfull. Be sure to read post 13 as well. I don't think you saw it.

It just took a while to post all those wr's, so I hadn't seen it at that point.

The drops are a huge sign for me, as well as we just drafted 3 players that should take away chances 2 of whom will fight to eventually be #1. Also, he has played in a full season exactly 1 time. (no surprise 05). Another sign is that Moss didn't "wake up" until Collins was his QB, he didn't build any chemistry with Campbell.

We certainly agree on talent...Moss has a bunch. But I don't trust that he'll be reliable right now...especially when he's had only 2 seasons that would be considered "good". (he's entering into his 8th season)

He is certainly capable if that is a point you're trying to make. But what happens if he slips on a bananna peel in week 3? The man is constantly on the injury report. There are PLENTY of wr's out there that are capable of being #1, but only a handful will actually produce like a #1.

I see your optimism, and with this new system, Moss could break out again, and for the Skins sake, I hope he does. I'll still wear his jersey!

[Miller101]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Not to pee in your cheerios angry, but Moss ranked 39th last year (in normal leagues) as a fantasy WR. He ranked 46th in TD leagues.

Also, he is projected to be the 31st best WR this year according to different magazines.
Being projected 31st and being ranked 39th / 46th last year means he should be a 3rd wr at best for your team. (considering most leagues are made up of 10-14 teams)

jsarno..........I agree with you on your post with one exception. When Moss plays Dallas he is a elite receiver. I know that we don't have the luxury to play Dallas 16 games, but Moss is a Cowboy killer and for two games he is a MUST START.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Miller101

jsarno..........I agree with you on your post with one exception. When Moss plays Dallas he is a elite receiver. I know that we don't have the luxury to play Dallas 16 games, but Moss is a Cowboy killer and for two games he is a MUST START.

Very true!

Here are his games vs Dallas:
2007
8 / 115 / 1
9 / 121 / 1
2006
4 / 69 / 0
2005
2 / 73 / 0
5 / 159 / 2
2003 *-with jets
5 / 65 / 0

In 6 games, he has 33 catches, 602 yards, and 4 tds.

If all Moss did was play Dallas over a full 16 game season, he'd have 88 catches, 1607 yards, and 11 tds. Yeah, that's certainly a coyboy killer. Gotta love that.

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Very true!

Here are his games vs Dallas:
2007
8 / 115 / 1
9 / 121 / 1
2006
4 / 69 / 0
2005
2 / 73 / 0
5 / 159 / 2
2003 *-with jets
5 / 65 / 0

In 6 games, he has 33 catches, 602 yards, and 4 tds.

If all Moss did was play Dallas over a full 16 game season, he'd have 88 catches, 1607 yards, and 11 tds. Yeah, that's certainly a coyboy killer. Gotta love that.

All I have to say is after seeing Moss in training camp he is the fastest man in the East. If we (JC) gets the ball to him in this season and next, and the next, the man is a HOFer for sure. Go MOSS...

P.S. I'm a little biased because I have like 7 sigs of his on everything Skins stuff I own. ha ha..

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by hesscl34

All I have to say is after seeing Moss in training camp he is the fastest man in the East. If we (JC) gets the ball to him in this season and next, and the next, the man is a HOFer for sure. Go MOSS...

P.S. I'm a little biased because I have like 7 sigs of his on everything Skins stuff I own. ha ha..

That's funny. I hope for your sake that's true...but even if he has 3 pro bowl seasons from here, he likely still won't make the HOF.