Don't you think we are overreacting just a bit??

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Well, now you are making the case for an overreaction with statements like these. I agree we're not strong in the trenches, but judging Zorn and Cerrato as below average and in over his head after one game is premature. You don't have enough evidence yet to judge Cerrato's first draft class which he was solely in charge of. And one game isn't enough time to tell you whether Zorn can hold a team together through crisis and teach his players how to improve.

I do think we'll end up with a top 10 pick in the draft this year, but to rag on Zorn and Vinny at this point is premature. You just can't expect this team to be very good after such a big transition.

Here's the ultimate sniff test: how in the world do you go from Joe Gibbs to Jim Zorn and get better right away? If you expected Zorn to be better off the bat than Joe Gibbs was in his 4th season back, then you either drastically underestimate what a change in scheme does to a team or you think Joe Gibbs 2.0 was a terrible coach (in which case you're a moron).

The Zorn hire marked a new era. It meant we have to spend a year going through a tough learning period in hopes of taking steps forward in 2009, taking us further than where we were in 2007.

But there didn't need to be such a big transition. If the FO had half a brain they would've known that JC and the whole offense is going to struggle having to learn yet another offense. A smart FO keeps the OC. If you don't like Al then bring in a guy who runs the same system with the same terminolgy. Wasn't Cam Cameron out there? Why isn't he here? He's got OC and HC experience and I think he runs the Coryell numbers system. Can you name me one NFL Qb that's had to learn 3 NFL systems in his first 4 years?? Sorry but that's just not smart football. JC played poorly Mon. but he sure isn't getting any help from management. Plus you've got Collins who knows that system and played his ass off to help get this team in the playoffs last season. Sorry but if I'm management I'm keeping Al around just for that reason alone. Why make these guys learn something new when they could perfect what was already in place????

These coaches are paid high salaries. To not have a hurry up offense running with 6 min to go in a game where you're trailing by two scores is just stupid. That's high school stuff. Plus if Zorn watched the tapes from last year he'd know that JC runs the no huddle shotgun pretty damn well. Where the hell was it?? So again, why hire a guy who has no HC or OC experience? All I'm saying is there were more qualified guys out there. Just cause you get along with a guy doesn't mean he's the best guy for the job. This shit isn't about getting along, it's about winning games.

I know I'm overracting a bit. NY is just better. But not being prepared is a whole nother issue. We we not prepared Thurs. night and that pisses me off.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

But there didn't need to be such a big transition. If the FO had half a brain they would've known that JC and the whole offense is going to struggle having to learn yet another offense. A smart FO keeps the OC. If you don't like Al then bring in a guy who runs the same system with the same terminolgy. Wasn't Cam Cameron out there? Why isn't he here? He's got OC and HC experience and I think he runs the Coryell numbers system. Can you name me one NFL Qb that's had to learn 3 NFL systems in his first 4 years?? Sorry but that's just not smart football. JC played poorly Mon. but he sure isn't getting any help from management. Plus you've got Collins who knows that system and played his ass off to help get this team in the playoffs last season. Sorry but if I'm management I'm keeping Al around just for that reason alone. Why make these guys learn something new when they could perfect what was already in place????

These coaches are paid high salaries. To not have a hurry up offense running with 6 min to go in a game where you're trailing by two scores is just stupid. That's high school stuff. Plus if Zorn watched the tapes from last year he'd know that JC runs the no huddle shotgun pretty damn well. Where the hell was it?? So again, why hire a guy who has no HC or OC experience? All I'm saying is there were more qualified guys out there. Just cause you get along with a guy doesn't mean he's the best guy for the job. This shit isn't about getting along, it's about winning games.

I know I'm overracting a bit. NY is just better. But not being prepared is a whole nother issue. We we not prepared Thurs. night and that pisses me off.

1) Why keep the same OC who was responsible for the Lloyd & ARE deals? Why keep the same OC who general consensus is wasn't very effective, just for the sake of continuity?

2) JC didn't get any help from management??? Didn't we draft 2 WRs, a TE and OL with our first four picks?

3) Collins was effective but not the only reason we played strong down the stretch, weather, the D stepping up and the Cowboys securing playoff position had a lot more to do with that run than Collins. Collins is a career back-up for a reason. He was a FA and no one pursued him with starter $$$ even though there are a few teams that desperately needed QB help.

4) The goal is winning a SB, not winning games. What good is it to be 8-8, 9-7 and not advance in the playoffs. The draft picks aren't going to put us in the NFC Cahmpionship this year, but we are building to make a run in 2009 or 2010. DS & VC were right to go in another direction on offense than Saunders. For whatever reason other HC candidates didn't work out, we don't know all the details. Zorn will have some growing pains but appears to have good attention to detail and will be significantly better towards the end of the year than he is now.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I think people just need to realize that man for man we just don't match up with the top teams in the NFL. We lack true playmakers on both sides of the ball and we are not a strong team in the trenches. When you add on that fact that our front office is below average and we've got a rookie head coach that looks to be a little in over his head you've got a 4-6 win team. Sometimes people just need to face the facts. I know it sucks cause we homers tend to think our guys are better then they really are. I think that's just the case, not only around here but all over town. Once people realize it then maybe we won't see all the overreacting.

Disagree - plain and simple. I think we agree the guys looked like shit Thurs. I think we agree the transition to the WCO is pretty rough and too slow. We def agree the FO is not up to par w/ elite teams in the NFL. But I can't agree w/ you on our players. Offensively, we're sitting on one of the elite RBs in football, a proven elite TE and another TE that was elite through college, one of the very best fullbacks in football, a QB who has shown flashes of huge potential, WRs that do not fit the WCO but have been major deep threats, and a line that should at least get the job done. To the point I don't think we are utilizing the talent we have on the field at any given time and that is what has been truly frustrating over the last few years and again on Thurs.

[DIRTEE]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Disagree - plain and simple. I think we agree the guys looked like shit Thurs. I think we agree the transition to the WCO is pretty rough and too slow. We def agree the FO is not up to par w/ elite teams in the NFL. But I can't agree w/ you on our players. Offensively, we're sitting on one of the elite RBs in football, a proven elite TE and another TE that was elite through college, one of the very best fullbacks in football, a QB who has shown flashes of huge potential, WRs that do not fit the WCO but have been major deep threats, and a line that should at least get the job done. To the point I don't think we are utilizing the talent we have on the field at any given time and that is what has been truly frustrating over the last few years and again on Thurs.

I agree with the Goat, for some reason, we are not utilizing the talent on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think people really want to see Jason fired or all those other silly things, we just want some effort shown. I have a faith in the Redskins roster. I don't like the excuse of Jason having to learn different systems and he needs an adjustment period. that's not true. he will always have rushers in his face and 5 passing options on the field.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by DIRTEE

I agree with the Goat, for some reason, we are not utilizing the talent on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think people really want to see Jason fired or all those other silly things, we just want some effort shown. I have a faith in the Redskins roster. I don't like the excuse of Jason having to learn different systems and he needs an adjustment period. that's not true. he will always have rushers in his face and 5 passing options on the field.

Tell that to Matt Hasselbeck who struggled in picking up the WCO in Seattle.

It's not an excuse, it's a simple fact of life in the NFL that switching systems is not always the easiest thing to do, and requires some time and patience. It's one of the reasons why playing QB is probably the toughest thing to do in all of sports.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Tell that to Matt Hasselbeck who struggled in picking up the WCO in Seattle.

It's not an excuse, it's a simple fact of life in the NFL that switching systems is not always the easiest thing to do, and requires some time and patience. It's one of the reasons why playing QB is probably the toughest thing to do in all of sports.

Hasselbeck was actually benched for Trent Dilfer halfway through his first season in Seattle, which was I believe his 4th in the league. He turned out ok.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Disagree - plain and simple. I think we agree the guys looked like shit Thurs. I think we agree the transition to the WCO is pretty rough and too slow. We def agree the FO is not up to par w/ elite teams in the NFL. But I can't agree w/ you on our players. Offensively, we're sitting on one of the elite RBs in football, a proven elite TE and another TE that was elite through college, one of the very best fullbacks in football, a QB who has shown flashes of huge potential, WRs that do not fit the WCO but have been major deep threats, and a line that should at least get the job done. To the point I don't think we are utilizing the talent we have on the field at any given time and that is what has been truly frustrating over the last few years and again on Thurs.

Just look within the division. I don't see anyone on our offense that can take over the game like Burress or TO can. Cooley is a nice player. No doubt. But I'd probably take Witten over Cooley. Portis is a top ten back. No question. But he's not as good as Westbrook. He's not the duel threat like Westbrook is. And Davis may be good in the future but right now he's just an unproven rookie. And where it matters most, at the Qb position, JC is the worst QB within the division. He can't carry us yet, he's only shown flashes. But what we gave up to get him I expect him to be able to carry us at times. Right now his head is probably spining and he's thinking instead of reacting.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Just look within the division. I don't see anyone on our offense that can take over the game like Burress or TO can. Cooley is a nice player. No doubt. But I'd probably take Witten over Cooley. Portis is a top ten back. No question. But he's not as good as Westbrook. He's not the duel threat like Westbrook is. And Davis may be good in the future but right now he's just an unproven rookie. And where it matters most, at the Qb position, JC is the worst QB within the division. He can't carry us yet, he's only shown flashes. But what we gave up to get him I expect him to be able to carry us at times. Right now his head is probably spining and he's thinking instead of reacting.

Dude, you've got me LMOA. Not laughing at you so don't take this the wrong way but I've never heard Chris Cooley described as a nice player. Shit, just saying that out loud makes me crack up. Cooley has been under-utilized even in his best season, and has shown the talent and athleticism to take over a game. He's a phenom in waiting IMO and I'm hoping Zorn and Co. can hash out a game-plan that let's Cooley be the dominant offensive force he should be.

You could be right about Westbrook over CP but isn't it impossible to say since Westbrook has been blessed in Philly w/ an offensive genius for an HC. CP has been far less fortunate in his path w/ the exception of his brief stint in Denver. More to the point, try thinking about what CP would have done in Westbrook's circumstances. I still think CP can take over a game and it's up to Zorn and the offensive line to give him the opportunity w/ play-calling and decent blocking.

On to Davis, if Zorn and the FO spent a 2nd round pick on the most prolific TE in college ball last year just so he could spend his time blocking we might as well call it a season. Dude showed awesome hands and almost WR like ability to run routes and make defenders miss. If we don't find a way to incorporate him in the offense as a downfield target it looks like the worst pick of the draft.

But here's where we agree - JC is the worst QB in the division (assuming Dono is back to his old self). That is a shitty reality for us, but I'm not ready to say JC is just a shitty QB. He's shown flashes and now he needs to settle into the WCO. Hopefully his experience in the WC from senior year @ Auburn will start to pay dividends. Hopefully he progresses quick enough that we won't have to right '08 off.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Dude, you've got me LMOA. Not laughing at you so don't take this the wrong way but I've never heard Chris Cooley described as a nice player. Shit, just saying that out loud makes me crack up. Cooley has been under-utilized even in his best season, and has shown the talent and athleticism to take over a game. He's a phenom in waiting IMO and I'm hoping Zorn and Co. can hash out a game-plan that let's Cooley be the dominant offensive force he should be.

You could be right about Westbrook over CP but isn't it impossible to say since Westbrook has been blessed in Philly w/ an offensive genius for an HC. CP has been far less fortunate in his path w/ the exception of his brief stint in Denver. More to the point, try thinking about what CP would have done in Westbrook's circumstances. I still think CP can take over a game and it's up to Zorn and the offensive line to give him the opportunity w/ play-calling and decent blocking.

On to Davis, if Zorn and the FO spent a 2nd round pick on the most prolific TE in college ball last year just so he could spend his time blocking we might as well call it a season. Dude showed awesome hands and almost WR like ability to run routes and make defenders miss. If we don't find a way to incorporate him in the offense as a downfield target it looks like the worst pick of the draft.

But here's where we agree - JC is the worst QB in the division (assuming Dono is back to his old self). That is a shitty reality for us, but I'm not ready to say JC is just a shitty QB. He's shown flashes and now he needs to settle into the WCO. Hopefully his experience in the WC from senior year @ Auburn will start to pay dividends. Hopefully he progresses quick enough that we won't have to right '08 off.

I agree that Campbell is the worst QB in the division - right now.

He is also the least experienced. He has also been jerked around between different offensive systems unlike any other QB in the division. McNabb, for example, has had the same system the entire millenium.

Give JC some time and I think you will see this situation change.

I gotta disagree about the Portis/Westbrook comments posted earlier. Westbrook is very good, don't get me wrong. But Portis can run with him, can catch with him, and is the best pass-blocking back in the league.

A true Skins fan will be patient right now rather than hatin' on the boys.

[Hog1]

I first considered diplomacy, political correctness, and decorum to be the answer......
BUT
You say tomato, I say tomaato, but............
A cry baby Bitch is a cry baby Bitch!
AND in Redskinsville, we have surplus!

[redsk1]

We all know that some, maybe more than some overreact.

I don't think it's an overreaction to say that it was one of the sloppiest time management games I've seen in a while. A new head coach doesn't get a pass. He should be ready, it's the NFL.

I don't think it's an overreaction to say JC played like s***. It's not all on JC but he didn't look real comfortable although he settled down a bit.

I'm not ready to throw in the towel but i've been more than concerned for a few weeks.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by redsk1

We all know that some, maybe more than some overreact.

I don't think it's an overreaction to say that it was one of the sloppiest time management games I've seen in a while. A new head coach doesn't get a pass. He should be ready, it's the NFL.

I don't think it's an overreaction to say JC played like s***. It's not all on JC but he didn't look real comfortable although he settled down a bit.

I'm not ready to throw in the towel but i've been more than concerned for a few weeks.

He didn't remind anyone of Tom Brady, but did he really play like sh*t? Is 56% completion, a TD, an 81.6% QB rating and no turnovers playing like sh*t? He didn't look great but to read the boards you would have thought we had a blind hippo playing QB and he single handedly cost us the game.

[SFREDSKIN]

It's called impatience, unfortunately many fans on this board are. They bitch about a young QB not playing like a vet, they forget that in the old days a QB rode the pine for 4-5 years before he got a chance and compare him to other QB's like Brady or Manning that were successful from the start. Do most of you guys know how rare that is? I'll give Zorn and Campbell a chance, it's a new system and that takes time. If you guys want to bitch at someone, how about Vinny he chose to go with the Paul Brown offense instead of the Air Coryell. This creates a whole new philosphy that needs to be learned and the right players plugged in for the system. If you guys think that Collins can do better than JC, then you haven't watched the pre-season, if anything Colt would do better than Collins in this system and that's still a ways away.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

He didn't remind anyone of Tom Brady, but did he really play like sh*t? Is 56% completion, a TD, an 81.6% QB rating and no turnovers playing like sh*t? He didn't look great but to read the boards you would have thought we had a blind hippo playing QB and he single handedly cost us the game.

After a couple days to think about it, maybe JC playing like s*** is an overreaction. He didn't play well, but that could be said for the whole team i think.

[KWilly_2003]

MattyK72, I just want to say god bless you. Sometimes I even wonder if there are real redskins fans still left. We have a rookie HC and a young QB learning his 5 or 6th off. My god people just give them a chance, after the first 5 weeks things ease up on us. All 3 NFC East teams on the road in the first 5 weeks! Come on thats a killer right there, and its not helping Zorn out at all. If Danny will leave Zorn alone, maybe he can flush out this waste on this team and draft some players that will take us to the next level.