Liberal Supermajority

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by onlydarksets

It's an op-ed, not an article - big difference. It's typical for an op-ed, too. Light on substance, long on rhetoric.

First, I agree with what the author says about potential concerns regarding unions and global warming. Each needs to be checked. However, the rest is pretty much bunk.

- Universal health care: Yes it costs. It's worth it. We take health care for granted, but many can't afford it.
- The business climate: Is the author actually arguing that Sarb-Ox is a bad thing?
- Taxes: Taxes will rise for 2% of Americans and fall for 98%. I really don't have a problem with that. And I'm part of the 2%.
- Free speech and voting rights: This is classic - "Increased access to the polls favors the Democrats". Seriously - is that an argument?
- Special interest potpourri: This is six of one/half-dozen of the other. The R's are just as bad. I will say - does anyone actually think No Child Left Behind is working?

I'm completely down for universal health care. I would love to give people who would never be able to afford health care the chance to get treatment they other wise, wouldn't receive.

But I hear in Canada, where they do have universal health care, that:

1) The wait lists there for organs and such are HUUUUUUGE. Bigger than what we have in the US, and people already die here waiting.

and that

2) You have to be either pregnant or dying to get any sort of good attention there. Anyone with any sort of illness deemed "minor" is shoveled medicine and pushed away.

Now this may or may not be true and it's also someones opinion. Even though I've been told this, I'm still for it. The details of it, (insurance companies, prices etc etc) I don't really care about. I'm all about the big picture, if this is implemented (technical insider mumbo jumbo aside) could it stand up?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

The details of it, (insurance companies, prices etc etc) I don't really care about. I'm all about the big picture, if this is implemented (technical insider mumbo jumbo aside) could it stand up?

that's the problem, universal health care without regard to the details of its implementation is worthless. you'll end up like england or sweden with the standard of care drops through the floor, where funding it eats all kinda of money from everyone (mainly higher taxes) and no one's really happy about it.


you HAVE to put the $$ in front of the consumer so they can self regulate as the main cost control. even 5 or 10% payment is enough (with free screenings etc, since people waiting too long for treatment tends to be one of the highest drivers of total medical cost).

then you track individual usage patterns to help root out abuse (both consumers and doctors, and offer partial reimbursement for medical students college costs based upon national need and successful completion of studies and placement (being hired) into a hospital/clinic.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

I'm completely down for universal health care. I would love to give people who would never be able to afford health care the chance to get treatment they other wise, wouldn't receive.
But I hear in Canada, where they do have universal health care, that:

1) The wait lists there for organs and such are HUUUUUUGE. Bigger than what we have in the US, and people already die here waiting.

and that

2) You have to be either pregnant or dying to get any sort of good attention there. Anyone with any sort of illness deemed "minor" is shoveled medicine and pushed away.

Now this may or may not be true and it's also someones opinion. Even though I've been told this, I'm still for it. The details of it, (insurance companies, prices etc etc) I don't really care about. I'm all about the big picture, if this is implemented (technical insider mumbo jumbo aside) could it stand up?

Nothing is stopping you from stroking a check for someone who doesn't have health care. I, on the other hand, would prefer just to take care of my own family.

Here's the thing about universal health care -- who pays for it? The government you say? How does the government get the money to do that? Through taxes, right? Are there taxes taken out of your paycheck? Yes? Then you're still paying for health care - just not your own.

With universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Nothing is stopping you from stroking a check for someone who doesn't have health care. I, on the other hand, would prefer just to take care of my own family.

Here's the thing about universal health care -- who pays for it? The government you say? How does the government get the money to do that? Through taxes, right? Are there taxes taken out of your paycheck? Yes? Then you're still paying for health care - just not your own.

With universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.

"there, but for the grace of god, go i."

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Nothing is stopping you from stroking a check for someone who doesn't have health care. I, on the other hand, would prefer just to take care of my own family.

Here's the thing about universal health care -- who pays for it? The government you say? How does the government get the money to do that? Through taxes, right? Are there taxes taken out of your paycheck? Yes? Then you're still paying for health care - just not your own.

With universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.

God forbid anything happen to you or your family, but if anything ever did happen to you or your family, to the point of where you couldn't support yourself/your medical bills, and the majority of people carry that attitude, they might as well just turn you away at the front door of the hospital and say, "go take care of yourself."

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

God forbid anything happen to you or your family, but if anything ever did happen to you or your family, to the point of where you couldn't support yourself/your medical bills, and the majority of people carry that attitude, they might as well just turn you away at the front door of the hospital and say, "go take care of yourself."

So if something happens to me or my family, you're saying I should have the right to approach you and Saden, and FORCE you to help me pay my medical bills?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So if something happens to me or my family, you're saying I should have the right to approach you and Saden, and FORCE you to help me pay my medical bills?

I don't run a charity bro but what I am willing to do is have some of my tax money used to create universal health care system to help keep your costs down and allow your family to seek medical treatment without you lot having to fork your life savings. I mean, I already do that sort of thing with schools (no kids here BTW), police departments, and fire departments.


Yeah, I'm nice like that.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by saden1

I don't run a charity bro but what I am willing to do is have some of my tax money used to create universal health care system to help keep your costs down and allow your family to seek medical treatment without you lot having to fork your life savings. I mean, I already do that sort of thing with schools (no kids here BTW), police departments, and fire departments.


Yeah, I'm nice like that.

So you don't like the idea of me coming to you directly to force you to help me pay my doctor bills, but you're fine with the government forcing you to do it on my behalf? As more and more people get older, and as the population of this country continues to rise, the cost of universal coverage will most certainly not go down. Entitlement programs are bankrupting this nation.

Adding health insurance to the already long list of obligations this government has in the form of retirement, prescription drugs, Medicare, Medicaid, Wall Street bailouts, foreign misadventures, saving the oppressed people of the world, acting as policeman of the world ... sooner or later the bill is going to come due. The last thing we should do is pile on more financial responsibilities on the government that it cannot possibly afford.

What ever happened to personal responsibility here? What happened to 'Rugged Individualism' ?? Doesn't anyone see the danger of encouraging society to be totally dependent on the government for all of our needs?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So you don't like the idea of me coming to you directly to force you to help me pay my doctor bills, but you're fine with the government forcing you to do it on my behalf? As more and more people get older, and as the population of this country continues to rise, the cost of universal coverage will most certainly not go down. Entitlement programs are bankrupting this nation.

Adding health insurance to the already long list of obligations this government has in the form of retirement, prescription drugs, Medicare, Medicaid, Wall Street bailouts, foreign misadventures, saving the oppressed people of the world, acting as policeman of the world ... sooner or later the bill is going to come due. The last thing we should do is pile on more financial responsibilities on the government that it cannot possibly afford.

What ever happened to personal responsibility here? What happened to 'Rugged Individualism' ?? Doesn't anyone see the danger of encouraging society to be totally dependent on the government for all of our needs?

I'll be happy to donate $50 to your cause. Every problem has a solution except perhaps P = NP problem. I mean by the way you sound you're basically saying all government services are bad. This of of course is not true. Some are better than others, some are vital to this nation's progress and prosperity and others can be done away with all together.

It is important to remember that this country wouldn't be where it is without the Marshall Plan, the New Deal, and the Reconstruction. Certainly we have lost some ground in terms keeping spending under control but such problem can be corrected. The Medicare bill, the farm bill, all the other shitty bills aren't permanent and can be alleviated if the people and their representatives choose to do so. David Walker is getting the ball rolling and I think people are starting to pay attention.

[onlydarksets]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

So if something happens to me or my family, you're saying I should have the right to approach you and Saden, and FORCE you to help me pay my medical bills?

What saden said...

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

I'm completely down for universal health care. I would love to give people who would never be able to afford health care the chance to get treatment they other wise, wouldn't receive.

But I hear in Canada, where they do have universal health care, that:

1) The wait lists there for organs and such are HUUUUUUGE. Bigger than what we have in the US, and people already die here waiting.

and that

2) You have to be either pregnant or dying to get any sort of good attention there. Anyone with any sort of illness deemed "minor" is shoveled medicine and pushed away.

Now this may or may not be true and it's also someones opinion. Even though I've been told this, I'm still for it. The details of it, (insurance companies, prices etc etc) I don't really care about. I'm all about the big picture, if this is implemented (technical insider mumbo jumbo aside) could it stand up?

We see every goverment programe blow up in cost and do just a fraction of what is promised. Just name one goverment program that is working and not costing way more than it should. SS, medicare, etc.. are in financial trouble. Maybe they can run it like Wall Street or our home mortgage banking because all of that is going so well.