Redskins v Ravens Offensive GT Review: Skins lose turnover battle, game

[30gut]

First off, nice breakdown.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But when Moss wants to run a short route, every CB he lines up against reads it right away. He'll get open underneath against very, very soft coverages, but Zorn likes the three step drop short passing game,

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Regarding Santana tipping shorter routes, giving DBs a jump, I was wondering whether you see Campbell doing anything that may be giving the D a clue there. Just a thought.

I don't think Moss or Cambell are tipping anything.
IMO defenses are tipped off by watching tape.
They know our fondness for the 3 step drop routes and that Moss is are main threat.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

First off, nice breakdown.





I don't think Moss or Cambell are tipping anything.
IMO defenses are tipped off by watching tape.
They know our fondness for the 3 step drop routes and that Moss is are main threat.

They certainly see a steady diet of three step drops on tape, but I still think Moss is tipping his route, because he can still run a fade, a slant, or a hitch/curl out of this passing series, but he's not open on ANY of it.

And the curls at the first-down marker, I mean yeah, defenses are not shocked by these routes, but still, you have to give yourself enough separation to make the catch. I feel like Moss can do this, but not with consistency like in 05, and 06 pre injury.

I would say the Moss we saw in September was a different and more effective player than the one we have seen recently.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

he can still run a fade, a slant, or a hitch/curl out of this passing series, but he's not open on ANY of it...........I would say the Moss we saw in September was a different and more effective player than the one we have seen recently.

Yeah, Moss might not be full strength. Also i don't think corners repect Moss going deep because he doesn't do it that often anymore and the corners often have safety help which allows them to play Moss ultra aggressive on the underneath routes.

But, hopefully with more time Zorn/JC back the corners off with some intermediate and deep routes.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Yeah, Moss might not be full strength. Also i don't think corners repect Moss going deep because he doesn't do it that often anymore and the corners often have safety help which allows them to play Moss ultra aggressive on the underneath routes.

But, hopefully with more time Zorn/JC back the corners off with some intermediate and deep routes.

Kelly and Thomas both, one of the main things they've done right this year is display good route running skills, and the ability to get open. For a plethora of reasons, most of which has to do with rookie mistakes, this hasn't translated into production. But for the type of game Zorn likes to call, both of whom are a better fit than Moss.

Which isn't to say we don't need Moss in 3 WR sets. But that we should limit him to those sets, and certain plays out of 2 WR sets.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Kelly and Thomas both, one of the main things they've done right this year is display good route running skills, and the ability to get open. For a plethora of reasons, most of which has to do with rookie mistakes, this hasn't translated into production. But for the type of game Zorn likes to call, both of whom are a better fit than Moss.

Which isn't to say we don't need Moss in 3 WR sets. But that we should limit him to those sets, and certain plays out of 2 WR sets.

Why do you want to limit Moss in the base 2 WR/3 WR sets?

I don't think Moss problems getting open are due to poor route running (maybe a litte) nor do i think that the rookies or ARE are better route runners. IMO the source of the problem is that Moss often gets doubled.

At the begining of the year i was surprised when Zorn moved Moss to the X receiver, but it worked great until teams started doubling him.

Now i would like to see Devin@X and Moss@Z my reason is this:

1) Moss often draws double coverage, a corner playing tight underneath coverage with safety help up top, with Moss as the Z receiver he would bring his double with him and draw the attention of the strong side safety away from Cooley

2) As the Z receiver Moss would have a free release making it easier to get off press coverage (if he needs it)

3) This allow whoever plays the X receiver to reap the benefits traditional benefits of the position b/c they wouldn't face double like Moss


-btw good discussion

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Why do you want to limit Moss in the base 2 WR/3 WR sets?

I don't think Moss problems getting open are due to poor route running (maybe a litte) nor do i think that the rookies or ARE are better route runners. IMO the source of the problem is that Moss often gets doubled.

At the begining of the year i was surprised when Zorn moved Moss to the X receiver, but it worked great until teams started doubling him.

Now i would like to see Devin@X and Moss@Z my reason is this:

1) Moss often draws double coverage, a corner playing tight underneath coverage with safety help up top, with Moss as the Z receiver he would bring his double with him and draw the attention of the strong side safety away from Cooley

2) As the Z receiver Moss would have a free release making it easier to get off press coverage (if he needs it)

3) This allow whoever plays the X receiver to reap the benefits traditional benefits of the position b/c they wouldn't face double like Moss


-btw good discussion

When teams have the resources to do so, they do like to double Santana Moss, however, teams don't have enough players on the field to put 8 in the box AND put a safety over the top on Moss. Teams with a single safety against the Redskins will put him in the middle of the field. So while when Moss was hot, teams were scared enough of him to alter their gameplans, that's no longer really the case.

Randle El, obviously, will never be the guy who pulls the strong safety out of the box. He's a complimentary receiver, and a darn good one if the guy he's complimenting is feared. He's also exactly what this offense needs for it's second receiver, a guy who's very dependable on 3rd and 6. Whether he works out of the slot or the outside depends on the play.

Basically, this team needs Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas to be a Plaxico-type target, and show enough deep ability to pull a safety out of the box. I think Santana could be lethal out of the slot, but he's only valuable when he's not the guy who people expect to get the ball, which isn't the case right now.

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

Woah, i still think Moss should be the number one target. I would rather see him as the Z receiver because with Cooley and Moss on the same side of the field it would be harder for teams to double both of them. When Moss gets doubled Cooley should have a favorable match-up. And as the Z receiver he gets a free release and can go in motion.

Conversely, whoever plays X receiver would then have the benefits that Moss doesn't when he plays the X because teams focus on Moss.

Moss is still the best receiver on this team.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

When teams have the resources to do so, they do like to double Santana Moss, however, teams don't have enough players on the field to put 8 in the box AND put a safety over the top on Moss. Teams with a single safety against the Redskins will put him in the middle of the field. So while when Moss was hot, teams were scared enough of him to alter their gameplans, that's no longer really the case.

Randle El, obviously, will never be the guy who pulls the strong safety out of the box. He's a complimentary receiver, and a darn good one if the guy he's complimenting is feared. He's also exactly what this offense needs for it's second receiver, a guy who's very dependable on 3rd and 6. Whether he works out of the slot or the outside depends on the play.

Basically, this team needs Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas to be a Plaxico-type target, and show enough deep ability to pull a safety out of the box. I think Santana could be lethal out of the slot, but he's only valuable when he's not the guy who people expect to get the ball, which isn't the case right now.

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

This doesn't surprise me. I don't feel like it's a knock on Moss either. The debate whether he's a legit #1 receiving target is sort of moot because the proof is in the pudding i.e. when there is another very potent target the defense has to be mindful of Moss becomes a 2nd #1 receiver in a sense. Moss is phenomenal after the catch, but IMO he lacks the skill of say Smith in Carolina to consistently get open (even against double coverage). We so need Thomas or Kelly to become a monster possession receiver - a #1 target really who has super-glue hands, the ability to snatch the ball out of the air under pressure and in heavy coverage (none of our WRs can do this today) and can consistently get some separation. Very hard to say at this point whether one of them can rise to the challenge. I honestly believe if one of these guys can become that guy during the off-season our offense will be ****ing fantastic next year (assuming we really go to work on the o-line).

GT it was really good to hear you say Campbell played well. To my untrained eye it's very hard to tell whether piss-poor protection and overall line performance is dragging JC down, but in this game especially felt like he was on his game and seeing the field well. I think Jason deserves serious props for this because it basically shows he is progressing while the offensive line disintegrates and he gets beat up most games. I feel more confident in JC now than ever before