Redskins v Ravens Offensive GT Review: Skins lose turnover battle, game

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Why do you want to limit Moss in the base 2 WR/3 WR sets?

I don't think Moss problems getting open are due to poor route running (maybe a litte) nor do i think that the rookies or ARE are better route runners. IMO the source of the problem is that Moss often gets doubled.

At the begining of the year i was surprised when Zorn moved Moss to the X receiver, but it worked great until teams started doubling him.

Now i would like to see Devin@X and Moss@Z my reason is this:

1) Moss often draws double coverage, a corner playing tight underneath coverage with safety help up top, with Moss as the Z receiver he would bring his double with him and draw the attention of the strong side safety away from Cooley

2) As the Z receiver Moss would have a free release making it easier to get off press coverage (if he needs it)

3) This allow whoever plays the X receiver to reap the benefits traditional benefits of the position b/c they wouldn't face double like Moss


-btw good discussion

When teams have the resources to do so, they do like to double Santana Moss, however, teams don't have enough players on the field to put 8 in the box AND put a safety over the top on Moss. Teams with a single safety against the Redskins will put him in the middle of the field. So while when Moss was hot, teams were scared enough of him to alter their gameplans, that's no longer really the case.

Randle El, obviously, will never be the guy who pulls the strong safety out of the box. He's a complimentary receiver, and a darn good one if the guy he's complimenting is feared. He's also exactly what this offense needs for it's second receiver, a guy who's very dependable on 3rd and 6. Whether he works out of the slot or the outside depends on the play.

Basically, this team needs Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas to be a Plaxico-type target, and show enough deep ability to pull a safety out of the box. I think Santana could be lethal out of the slot, but he's only valuable when he's not the guy who people expect to get the ball, which isn't the case right now.

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

Woah, i still think Moss should be the number one target. I would rather see him as the Z receiver because with Cooley and Moss on the same side of the field it would be harder for teams to double both of them. When Moss gets doubled Cooley should have a favorable match-up. And as the Z receiver he gets a free release and can go in motion.

Conversely, whoever plays X receiver would then have the benefits that Moss doesn't when he plays the X because teams focus on Moss.

Moss is still the best receiver on this team.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Woah, i still think Moss should be the number one target. I would rather see him as the Z receiver because with Cooley and Moss on the same side of the field it would be harder for teams to double both of them. When Moss gets doubled Cooley should have a favorable match-up. And as the Z receiver he gets a free release and can go in motion.

Conversely, whoever plays X receiver would then have the benefits that Moss doesn't when he plays the X because teams focus on Moss.

Moss is still the best receiver on this team.

I agree with you that if we switched Moss and Randle El in our formations, it might help both of them produce more. We use Randle El and Cooley in a lot of route combinations. Perhaps Moss would benefit from running these route combinations instead.

On non-timing plays though, Moss is still pretty effective. It's those three step drop or five step blitz beaters that he's really struggling with.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

When teams have the resources to do so, they do like to double Santana Moss, however, teams don't have enough players on the field to put 8 in the box AND put a safety over the top on Moss. Teams with a single safety against the Redskins will put him in the middle of the field. So while when Moss was hot, teams were scared enough of him to alter their gameplans, that's no longer really the case.

Randle El, obviously, will never be the guy who pulls the strong safety out of the box. He's a complimentary receiver, and a darn good one if the guy he's complimenting is feared. He's also exactly what this offense needs for it's second receiver, a guy who's very dependable on 3rd and 6. Whether he works out of the slot or the outside depends on the play.

Basically, this team needs Malcolm Kelly or Devin Thomas to be a Plaxico-type target, and show enough deep ability to pull a safety out of the box. I think Santana could be lethal out of the slot, but he's only valuable when he's not the guy who people expect to get the ball, which isn't the case right now.

Basically, I'm answering the question "If Kelly/Thomas becomes the number one target on the Redskins, who is the better complementary receiver: Moss or Randle El?" The answer is Randle El. But the question also implies that Kelly/Thomas become the player that we want Moss to be right now, that he simply is not.

This doesn't surprise me. I don't feel like it's a knock on Moss either. The debate whether he's a legit #1 receiving target is sort of moot because the proof is in the pudding i.e. when there is another very potent target the defense has to be mindful of Moss becomes a 2nd #1 receiver in a sense. Moss is phenomenal after the catch, but IMO he lacks the skill of say Smith in Carolina to consistently get open (even against double coverage). We so need Thomas or Kelly to become a monster possession receiver - a #1 target really who has super-glue hands, the ability to snatch the ball out of the air under pressure and in heavy coverage (none of our WRs can do this today) and can consistently get some separation. Very hard to say at this point whether one of them can rise to the challenge. I honestly believe if one of these guys can become that guy during the off-season our offense will be ****ing fantastic next year (assuming we really go to work on the o-line).

GT it was really good to hear you say Campbell played well. To my untrained eye it's very hard to tell whether piss-poor protection and overall line performance is dragging JC down, but in this game especially felt like he was on his game and seeing the field well. I think Jason deserves serious props for this because it basically shows he is progressing while the offensive line disintegrates and he gets beat up most games. I feel more confident in JC now than ever before

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

GT it was really good to hear you say Campbell played well. To my untrained eye it's very hard to tell whether piss-poor protection and overall line performance is dragging JC down, but in this game especially felt like he was on his game and seeing the field well. I think Jason deserves serious props for this because it basically shows he is progressing while the offensive line disintegrates and he gets beat up most games. I feel more confident in JC now than ever before

It's hard for a lot of people to tell over the last five games, but it's night and day Campbell from Pittsburgh to New York and Baltimore. He was missing holes in the secondary against Pittsburgh, and generally was confused in the pocket, and held the ball too long. Now he's not holding the ball too long, knows exactly when his teammates SHOULD have the rush picked up, and knows where to go with the football.

It's basically been an entire season of maturation under our (the collective our, not just you and me) noses in the last five games, but we're stuck on what didn't happen against Pittsburgh and Dallas

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

This doesn't surprise me. I don't feel like it's a knock on Moss either. The debate whether he's a legit #1 receiving target is sort of moot because the proof is in the pudding i.e. when there is another very potent target the defense has to be mindful of Moss becomes a 2nd #1 receiver in a sense. Moss is phenomenal after the catch, but IMO he lacks the skill of say Smith in Carolina to consistently get open (even against double coverage). We so need Thomas or Kelly to become a monster possession receiver - a #1 target really who has super-glue hands, the ability to snatch the ball out of the air under pressure and in heavy coverage (none of our WRs can do this today) and can consistently get some separation. Very hard to say at this point whether one of them can rise to the challenge. I honestly believe if one of these guys can become that guy during the off-season our offense will be ****ing fantastic next year (assuming we really go to work on the o-line).

I should point out that Plax has never been a very reliable player at any point in his career either. But if they can bring the spectacular to the offense, I feel the consistency will come shortly behind.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I should point out that Plax has never been a very reliable player at any point in his career either. But if they can bring the spectacular to the offense, I feel the consistency will come shortly behind.

I don't want to have anything to do w/ Plax. Really I don't think we should have to focus on making another big addition to the WR position - can't always just count on recruiting already developed talent - the coaches should work like hell on Thomas/Kelly. IMO odds are one of those guys should have the talent/ambition to be the weapon opposite Moss.

Just hoping we spend FA money and draft picks on trench talent. Replace Rabach like you said. Bring in a franchise RT to replace Jansen (do you think Jansen can be persuaded to save us some money and move to the guard position or backup RT?) and get a monster DT. Oh, and another solid OLB. How's that for a Christmas wish list!

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by The Goat

I don't want to have anything to do w/ Plax. Really I don't think we should have to focus on making another big addition to the WR position - can't always just count on recruiting already developed talent - the coaches should work like hell on Thomas/Kelly. IMO odds are one of those guys should have the talent/ambition to be the weapon opposite Moss.

Just hoping we spend FA money and draft picks on trench talent. Replace Rabach like you said. Bring in a franchise RT to replace Jansen (do you think Jansen can be persuaded to save us some money and move to the guard position or backup RT?) and get a monster DT. Oh, and another solid OLB. How's that for a Christmas wish list!

There's not a whole lot we can do with Jansen since most of his contract was already paid to him at the time. Not a whole lot of non-guarenteed cash in that deal for the first three years. Luckily, I don't really see Jansen has the huge problem others do. I think he's totally overmatched against elite ends, and will give up sacks to great players, but he generally knows what he's doing, and although his future is probably on the interior, we could do worse than to suck it up for one more year with him at RT.

And I hope either Kelly or Thomas is the solution, or a team that badly needs to hit on it's draft picks pissed away an entire opportunity to do so. Definately not looking WR in the draft this year.