Updated: Discuss our Backup QB Situation (formerly Byron Leftwich)

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Lotta Campbell-lovers in here apparently. To clarify my remark about Campbell being too tall, Zorn worked with him all offseason to stand shorter in the pocket because Zorn felt he was too tall.... so Campbell is always crouched down a little bit - that cant be comfortable for him. Someone also said something about JLC thinking Campbell is our franchise QB, and thats not accurate. JLC has said he thinks we should stick with Campbell because he's not THE probelm. O-line is our biggest and we still dont have good receivers. JLC thinks Campbell hasnt done enough either way to show if he can be THE GUY for us or not.

Here is an article I found after our first loss this season:

Trying to Get Up to Speed - washingtonpost.com

He's so big, and I just want him to move faster," Zorn said of the 6-foot-5 Campbell, who completed 15 of 27 passes Thursday night for 133 yards with a touchdown and an 81.2 passer rating. "And we'll continue to work on it. I'm not discouraged with a lot of the things he did. I just want him to get better."


Zorn lauded Campbell for protecting the football and not turning it over but was concerned by his tendency to lock onto a particular receiver, which contributed to a sack on the first offensive play of the game. Campbell also neglected to attempt to find a primary receiver downfield too often -- opting for "check-downs" to secondary options instead -- and Zorn is still waiting for a vertical component of his attack take shape.

Some scouts and executives believe Campbell is a poor fit for the West Coast offense, with his size and skills favoring seven-step drops and more deep throws, instead of the three-step drops and quick, rhythmic cadence of Zorn's style. "When I watch that team, I think something's going to have to give," said one NFL executive who has studied Campbell closely and believes he could succeed as a drop-back passer. "Is it the scheme or the quarterback? At some point either the coach is going to have to change what he does to fit the quarterback, or they're going to need a different quarterback."

Did Campbell improve in some areas of his play between 07 and 08? Sure. His passer rating went up a little bit (as it should for any QB in a WCO) and he stopped fumbling every game... thats good. But the fundamental flaws in Campbells game mentioned in the article - holding on to the ball too long and locking onto a receiver - have plagued campbell his entire career. They were a problem in college. They were a problem under Gibbs. They were a problem under Saunders. They were a problem at the beginning fo the season with Zorn. They were still a problem at the end of the season. In the WCO, you simply can't have a QB who holds on to the ball to long. Arguably, that would apply to any offense, but in a Coreyll style offense like the one we ran before, 5 and 7 step drops are more common than they are in a WCO. In that type of offense, Campbells tendancy to hold onto the ball can be covered over a little bit. but not here. the WCO (and one with a weak offensive line), where the majority of the passing plays involve 3 step drops, its KILLER.

If Campbell had shown some improvement in getting rid of the ball quicker and not locking in on his receivers as the season went on, i might feel differently. but he didnt. we're wasting our time with Campbell and the WCO. Either he needs to go, or the system does. However, if the system went (and Zorn was fired), and Campbell had to learn another new offense - theres no way he'd want to resign here, so we'd lose him anyways as a free agent. Holding onto campbell now does nothing but delay the inevitable. One way or another, chances are, he wont be our starting QB in 2011. We can keep him another year or two, and get nothing for him when he leaves, or we can get something for him in a trade and start developing a plan B.

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise. I felt that way about Ramsey. I used to feel that way about Campbell. Maybe i just havent done a good job of expressing my argument convincingly, but i just dont have much hope for Campbell in a skins uniform.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Lotta Campbell-lovers in here apparently. To clarify my remark about Campbell being too tall, Zorn worked with him all offseason to stand shorter in the pocket because Zorn felt he was too tall.... so Campbell is always crouched down a little bit - that cant be comfortable for him.

Zorn didn't feel he was too tall. He needed to be quicker and have better balance on his drops which means deeper bend in the knees. That helps keep your feet balanced and allows a quicker set and release.

JLC has said he thinks we should stick with Campbell because he's not THE probelm.

Not to argue your point, you're correct here. But I don't put to much stock in what JLC has to say other than direct quotes he gets from Redskin Park or the players. This is the same guy whose in-depth knowledge of football had him writing a column after the draft about 4WR, 2TE sets.

Here is an article I found after our first loss this season:

Trying to Get Up to Speed - washingtonpost.com

you should've posted these two paragraphs also:
Zorn discounted the notion Campbell might not be a perfect fit for this offense but was honest about the length of time necessary to grasp it fully. He spoke again yesterday about how "wild" Pro Bowl passer Matt Hasselbeck was in his first season in Seattle with Zorn as quarterbacks coach, even after Hasselbeck's four years as a backup in the same system in Green Bay, but said Campbell has enough talent to overcome any hiccups.
"I think he's got enough athleticism, I really do, to speed up his game in certain situations," Zorn said. "And part of that, I'm hoping, is just the idea of understanding the offense better, the speed of it. He's not there yet, but I'm not totally discouraged. We have to make big plays when the opportunity is there."

pretty good endorsement from Zorn, and this was after a discouraging loss....

They were still a problem at the end of the season.

The problem at the end of the season was the OL breakdown.

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe he's the savior. I believe he is a solid, competent NFL starter who hasn't reached his potential. He has the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, if he develops in the WCO. He will never be a Manning, Brady (future HoFer) type

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Zorn didn't feel he was too tall. He needed to be quicker and have better balance on his drops which means deeper bend in the knees. That helps keep your feet balanced and allows a quicker set and release.

interesting comment. Ive never considered that so i'll take your word for it.

Not to argue your point, you're correct here. But I don't put to much stock in what JLC has to say other than direct quotes he gets from Redskin Park or the players. This is the same guy whose in-depth knowledge of football had him writing a column after the draft about 4WR, 2TE sets.

I dont puch much stock in what JLC says either, but moreso his quotes. I just wanted to clarify someone elses comment about JLC thinking he would be our franchise QB.

you should've posted these two paragraphs also:
Zorn discounted the notion Campbell might not be a perfect fit for this offense but was honest about the length of time necessary to grasp it fully. He spoke again yesterday about how "wild" Pro Bowl passer Matt Hasselbeck was in his first season in Seattle with Zorn as quarterbacks coach, even after Hasselbeck's four years as a backup in the same system in Green Bay, but said Campbell has enough talent to overcome any hiccups.
"I think he's got enough athleticism, I really do, to speed up his game in certain situations," Zorn said. "And part of that, I'm hoping, is just the idea of understanding the offense better, the speed of it. He's not there yet, but I'm not totally discouraged. We have to make big plays when the opportunity is there."

pretty good endorsement from Zorn, and this was after a discouraging loss...

Actually, i deliberately didnt put those paragraphs there because i viewed them as nothing but spin. Campbell has understandably had a problem with confidence. A HC is NEVER EVER going to say things publically that would hurt his QBs confidence. Add to that the fact that the only reason Zorn got this job was Snyder and Cerrato wanted someone to develop Campbell... if Zorn said Campbell wouldnt ever be a great WCO QB, then he would be giving his boss no reason to keep him around.

I dont beleive anything Zorn says about Campbell. Cerratos opinion is more important to me (i cant beleive i just said that) and when he was given the opportunity to give Campbell some sort of endorsement after the season, he didnt.

The problem at the end of the season was the OL breakdown.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe he's the savior. I believe he is a solid, competent NFL starter who hasn't reached his potential. He has the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, if he develops in the WCO. He will never be a Manning, Brady (future HoFer) type

And this is where i agree with you 100% (or close to it). I think he is a hard enough worker, that eventually (2 years maybe), he could conceivably be comfortable enough in the WCO to be a serviceable WCO QB. He wont lose games for us, but he wont win any for us either... He's essentially Trent Dilfer. You dont build a team around trent dilfer. If we really want to go with the WCO, we need to find a guy that fits the mold of a WCO QB. we need to move campbell for draft picks and then use those picks on linemen to help our new QB out. Campbell will never reach his potential in this offense. This offense will never reach its potential with Campbell under center. Its just not a good match. We can force it, we can try to make it work and we can do ok... but thats not going to cut it in the NFC East. With Campbell under center in the WCO, this offense will never be anything more than mediocre at best.

[gaudiomatt]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe he's the savior. I believe he is a solid, competent NFL starter who hasn't reached his potential. He has the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, if he develops in the WCO. He will never be a Manning, Brady (future HoFer) type[/QUOTE]

Jason Campbell is not a borderline pro bowler. He never will be. This offense will have to be built from the ground up in every area too finally get our offense moving. He generates absolutley nothing. He's going to be a passable NFL quarterback who relies way too much on the checkdown and is very athletic, he does not have potential either, well just do better and put up more points with a good oline Campbell isn't going to have great strides ever. He's been in the league for three years, showed us the exact same game he showed in college, he can be a decent QB and can win, but he is not a pro bowler and never will be. The whole league has this feeling that he has all the tools but they're taking a wait and see approach to lead a team, unfortunately there isn't much left to know about him. He's one of those guys the league is always basing his performance of expectatiosn and potential rather then just simply what it is, he's a decent QB he can be our starting QB but there's a lot of better ones out there.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by gaudiomatt

Jason Campbell is not a borderline pro bowler. He never will be. This offense will have to be built from the ground up in every area too finally get our offense moving. He generates absolutley nothing. He's going to be a passable NFL quarterback who relies way too much on the checkdown and is very athletic, he does not have potential either, well just do better and put up more points with a good oline Campbell isn't going to have great strides ever. He's been in the league for three years, showed us the exact same game he showed in college, he can be a decent QB and can win, but he is not a pro bowler and never will be. The whole league has this feeling that he has all the tools but they're taking a wait and see approach to lead a team, unfortunately there isn't much left to know about him. He's one of those guys the league is always basing his performance of expectatiosn and potential rather then just simply what it is, he's a decent QB he can be our starting QB but there's a lot of better ones out there.

I wish I had the sources you have around the "whole league". As most of the JC bashers, your analysis isn't based on any logic, stats or football knowledge. It's just a bunch of the same negative buzz-words/phrases parroted by those who want to be able to say "I told you so" when Campbell struggles. But, you same guys are going to be nowhere to be found when Campbell raises his QB rating into the 90s if we solidify the OL.

Here's the bottom line, as the OL goes, so goes any offense. If an OL struggles I don't care who is at QB, they will struggle. Peyton Manning struggled early in the year with the OL injuries in Indy. To those saying JC doesn't have the potential to be a borderline Pro Bowler, still haven't seen a valid dispute to his Pro Bowl level numbers early in the year.

To your Portis comment: see above, Portis is nowhere near the best RB in the league. He is very good, very solid, but his YPC went drastically south (just like any RBs would) when the OL broke down.

To your Moss comment: If you check, Moss was targeted more than any other Skins WR this year, so he's getting the looks. I also said the Skins WR corps was below average. This is an accurate statement. Here are the teams with better WRs than the Skins:

Giants, Cowboys, Panthers, Falcons, Bucs, Saints, Packers, Lions, Rams, Cards, Chargers, Broncos, Pats, Colts, Texans, Steelers, Ravens, Bengals, Browns.

These are debatable: Titans, Jets, Vikes, Eagles

That puts us as below average. Moss is not a dominant # 1 receiver. ARE is a 3rd WR at best and the rest are either unproductive rookies or career backups.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Alot of you have made good arguments for Campbell, and I understand in your opinions, he is the undisputed savior of our franchise. I felt that way about Ramsey. I used to feel that way about Campbell. Maybe i just havent done a good job of expressing my argument convincingly, but i just dont have much hope for Campbell in a skins uniform.

classic example of over-exagerrating what people were saying. how does "hes good", "hes solid" or "potential to be a borderline pro-bowler" = undisputed savior?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

classic example of over-exagerrating what people were saying. how does "hes good", "hes solid" or "potential to be a borderline pro-bowler" = undisputed savior?

perhaps "undisputed future" would have been a better term, but considering the run of mediocre QBs this team has had for 15 years, being a savior here wouldnt entail much more than that.

Originally Posted by 2BIG2BSKINNY

All year I watched as other teams attacked the defense down the field and we do not. JC had a decent year! Int"s down and fumbles were not a problem! If you want him to succeed let him attack the defense... even with no results then we can make a clear determination of the ability of JC as starting QB!

At least we would know what we have then!

I really thought when the offense got bogged down after the mid year we would go no huddle some and let jason play without thinking... Maybe we are to busy trying to plan a way to win then just going out there and doing what these players have done since they were kids...play football!

JC didnt attack defenses because JC doesnt look at his primary target. I only attended one game in person this year (Cardninals), but we had receivers open a number of times in that game and Campbell wasnt even looking at them... he consisently (as indicated in the article i quoted) stares down his check-down guy the entire time instead of looking at his primary target.

JC is also horribly timid in the red-zone. I've heard many people say he is too afraid to make a mistake. Whether thats a fault intrinsic to Campbell, lack of confidence in our receivers, or merely a result of having to learn a new offense nearly every year for the better part of the past decade, the fact remains that it seems true. campbell is unwilling to take chances. While that is one reason why he doesnt throw that many INTs, its also a reason he doesnt throw many touchdowns either.

If Campbell was 2 years younger and had 2 additional years on his contract at a low figure, i wouldnt be wanting to trade him. but the fact is, this is the last year we can realistically trade him and get something in return. Campbell hasnt shown me enough to think he's the future here.

i work in risk management, so i'll put it another way - the risk that campbell fails to become a successful west coast QB in 2009 and we have to look elsewhere for a QB FAR outweighs the risk that if we traded him for a 2nd rounder (or more); he would then go on to his new team and become a perennial pro-bowl QB and we would regret making a rash decision.

By sticking with Campbell, we are really going "all in" this year. If Campbell fails, it means not only is Campbell gone (atleast as a starter) next year, but also that Zorn and the WCO are gone too and we build from scratch again in 2010. New coach; new system; new quarterback. I would argue that sticking with Campbell puts this franchise back far more than moving him now, getting something in return, and keeping the offense in tact. On the flip side, if we were going to "blow this thing up," next year wouldnt be a bad year to do it.

[2BIG2BSKINNY]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

perhaps "undisputed future" would have been a better term, but considering the run of mediocre QBs this team has had for 15 years, being a savior here wouldnt entail much more than that.



JC didnt attack defenses because JC doesnt look at his primary target. I only attended one game in person this year (Cardninals), but we had receivers open a number of times in that game and Campbell wasnt even looking at them... he consisently (as indicated in the article i quoted) stares down his check-down guy the entire time instead of looking at his primary target.

JC is also horribly timid in the red-zone. I've heard many people say he is too afraid to make a mistake. Whether thats a fault intrinsic to Campbell, lack of confidence in our receivers, or merely a result of having to learn a new offense nearly every year for the better part of the past decade, the fact remains that it seems true. campbell is unwilling to take chances. While that is one reason why he doesnt throw that many INTs, its also a reason he doesnt throw many touchdowns either.

If Campbell was 2 years younger and had 2 additional years on his contract at a low figure, i wouldnt be wanting to trade him. but the fact is, this is the last year we can realistically trade him and get something in return. Campbell hasnt shown me enough to think he's the future here.

i work in risk management, so i'll put it another way - the risk that campbell fails to become a successful west coast QB in 2009 and we have to look elsewhere for a QB FAR outweighs the risk that if we traded him for a 2nd rounder (or more); he would then go on to his new team and become a perennial pro-bowl QB and we would regret making a rash decision.

By sticking with Campbell, we are really going "all in" this year. If Campbell fails, it means not only is Campbell gone (atleast as a starter) next year, but also that Zorn and the WCO are gone too and we build from scratch again in 2010. New coach; new system; new quarterback. I would argue that sticking with Campbell puts this franchise back far more than moving him now, getting something in return, and keeping the offense in tact. On the flip side, if we were going to "blow this thing up," next year wouldnt be a bad year to do it.

I WENT TO THE CINCY GAME AND THERE WAS NOT ONE ROUTE OVER 25 YARDS!!! This is when the Offense was not doing well. Early on in the Cards game we were very physical and were trying to hammer them with our line play. I agree that JC locks in to Santana way too much! But he has enough, if not tons more than any quarterback who led the Skins to any Superbowl... It may be the cast around him...

But I agree that this is the year that counts! Show me something JC!